Diesel vs Propane Home Backup Generator

[Bearcatrp]

Guess you shouldn’t wear leather gloves working on a presumed dead line. Never assume anything. If they were wearing the rubber gloves, they wouldn’t have died or got hurt. No different than pointing a gun at someone not verifying it’s unloaded. Have read other stories like this. I’ll keep doing it my way.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

In the first one, Adams ,it sounds like he was electrocuted because he DID NOT CHECK if power was on those lines.

I've ALWAYS tripped main and sub breakers since I was in high school(1968) ,refuse to work on ANY live circuits(120/240), period. Industrial accident back then, 2nd electrician grabs 1st guys tools to repair something, didn't notice those tools were NOT insulated( his were..), yup, he died. That was 1/2 a century ago and I STILL remember what happened.

some however ,never learn from other peoples mistakes.....

 

[DaveFromMi]

We installed a Koehler 10 kW propane generator last year. It runs through an exercise every other week. I went small to conserve propane. It would run everything in the house except the A/C and electric dryer at the same time.
In addition, I have 4 KW Generac portable and a 3 KW Honda inverter.
I am replacing the piston and cylinder sleeve on a 9 hp Lombardini single cylinder diesel. That was used to power highway construction signs. That, with some solar cells, should power up a battery bank.

 

[DustyRusty]

Oh yeah, I get jumped on many times for telling folks about this. Oh well, works for me and others doing the same thing.

In both CT and MA, if the power company detects that you are back-feeding your home without the proper equipment then they will cut the service to your home, and it will not be put back online until it is brought up to code by a licensed electrician along with a proper disconnect for a generator set up. During major power outages, the utility has people driving around checking on this when they hear a generator running. They will ask to see your setup and if you refuse to show it to them, they will automatically assume that it isn't a legal setup and will cut you off from the grid. After a few linemen have been injured, they take back feeding very seriously.

 

[fried1765]

Yep, some people are cavalier with other people's lives

From an OSHA review:
... After Green left, Adams went up in an insulated lift to repair the damaged lines. Three of the lines (the neutral, the road phase, and the field phase) were broken. The fourth line (the central line) was sagging but intact (Tr. 61). Although Adams could have repaired the sagging central line without splicing it, he chose to cut the line. The line on which Adam was working was connected by a secondary line to a house at the end of Jackson Street (referred to at the hearing as “a doctor’s house”). The homeowner had connected a portable generator to the house’s circuitry which caused electrical energy to backfeed to the line Adams was splicing, energizing it. Adams was electrocuted when he cut the line (Tr. 40, 95, 222, 269). The company has no written work rule requiring employees working on de-energized lines to wear protective rubber gloves (Tr. 40, 44). Adams was wearing leather work gloves, but not rubber gloves that day.
...

Florida:
Polk County, Fl
Wednesday, September 2, 2009 10:12 AM EDT

http://www.polkcountydemocrat.com/articles/2009/09/02/news/local/doc4a9dade2d4283632518688.txt

A Bartow electric department employee escaped a brush with death Monday night when a downed line he was repairing became energized by a homeowner’s generator.

Eddie Watson, an apprentice lineman, was grasping a line while wearing leather gloves as he worked to repair a line that was brought down by a falling tree in Monday night’s fierce thunderstorm.

When a homeowner whose house was served by the line started up a generator, it sent a surge of power through the line, Interim Electric Dir. Eschol Radford said.

The electricity went through a transformer, stepping up the voltage from 110 volts generated by the generator to 7,200 volts, the transmission voltage. Usually, the transformer does just the opposite, stepping down voltage from 7,200 to 110 volts for service lines to homes.

“He was lucky,” Radford said of Watson.

“Fortunately, he had a young guy, Scott Harrison, a lineman helper, working with him. Scott knocked him off the line and probably saved his life.”

and if you would like to look more up:
View attachment 114384

"Cavalier" ??????

Please explain WHY/HOW ...ANYBODY... can be hurt...... "back feeding" power through a TRIPPED main breaker!

 

[fried1765]

Oh yeah, I get jumped on many times for telling folks about this. Oh well, works for me and others doing the same thing.

I am waiting for an explanation on how power can be "backfed" through a TRIPPED main breaker !!!

 

[ctfjr]

"Cavalier" ??????

Please explain WHY/HOW ...ANYBODY... can be hurt...... "back feeding" power through a TRIPPED main breaker!

I'm sure its great solace for the widow to learn that the generator owner forgot to trip it just that one time.

 

[fried1765]

In both CT and MA, if the power company detects that you are back-feeding your home without the proper equipment then they will cut the service to your home, and it will not be put back online until it is brought up to code by a licensed electrician along with a proper disconnect for a generator set up. During major power outages, the utility has people driving around checking on this when they hear a generator running. They will ask to see your setup and if you refuse to show it to them, they will automatically assume that it isn't a legal setup and will cut you off from the grid. After a few linemen have been injured, they take back feeding very seriously.

I can refuse to allow ANYONE from any service company to enter my home.
In 2023......the "electric gestapo" ????
Better bring the sheriff,...... and by then,...... the evidence will be disconnected.
Could get interesting.

 

[fried1765]

I'm sure its great solace for the widow to learn that the generator owner forgot to trip it just that one time.

"forgot" ???
Ah Ha.......so it is not a question of electrical safety,.... but electrical idiocy ?
Similar to the issue with guns!
"forgot"...... that it was loaded?

People who do not understand guns/ammo should not own guns.
People who do not understand generators/electricity, should not own generators.

Perhaps buying a generator should require certificated generator training, a background check, and a 3 day waiting period?
Of course we also must need federal government generator registration.

 

[trial and error]

How can power be "backfed" through a TRIPPED main breaker?

So here is how that works. Disconnect switches are UL certified for what they are designed for, which is making it impossible to "back feed the grid" standard main breakers are not and just becuase it is tripped does not mean it's is "certified" to not have power be able to flow backwards through it. Now we both know that this is a fairly common practice and it works just fine to trip the main and backfeed. However when push comes to shove and expensive lawyers get involved someone who has been backfeeding and thus intentionally or not causes harm to a line worker their equipment or anyone/thing else that person will lose every single time.
It's not so much about "will it work" (it will) it is more about the (criminal) negligence that just one simple mistake can and eventually will cause to others. I am all about freedom of. Choice and not being overregulated . But my freedom of choice ends when someone else's safety comes into play. We can all.afford our "orange toys" so it's not a cost thing its a lazy and "cheap" thing let's just be honest about that. I put a switch in so someone like my wife who is pretty much illiterate with how this stuff works can safely power our home during an outage. Could we have gotten around it and just backed through the dryer outlet or similar? Sure but when (not if) I have to have someone who is unfamiliar with my setup power my home (when I'm not home etc) power my house with my generator I know for a fact it is a safe setup for all involved and there can be no "missed steps" that allow power from my gen set to reenter the grid.
So I don't think others are saying you "can't do it that way" they are just warning against the eventual outcome and what it will cost you or others which includes up to criminal negligence, if anything happens
End rant and I'm sure I'm going to get eaten alone for my statements

 

[fried1765]

So here is how that works. Disconnect switches are UL certified for what they are designed for, which is making it impossible to "back feed the grid" standard main breakers are not and just becuase it is tripped does not mean it's is "certified" to not have power be able to flow backwards through it. Now we both know that this is a fairly common practice and it works just fine to trip the main and backfeed. However when push comes to shove and expensive lawyers get involved someone who has been backfeeding and thus intentionally or not causes harm to a line worker their equipment or anyone/thing else that person will lose every single time.
It's not so much about "will it work" (it will) it is more about the (criminal) negligence that just one simple mistake can and eventually will cause to others. I am all about freedom of. Choice and not being overregulated regulated. But my freedom of choice ends when someone else's safety comes into play. We can all.afford our "orange toys" so it's not a cost thing its a lazy and "cheap" thing let's just be honest about that. I put a switch in so someone like my wife who is pretty much illiterate with how this stuff works can safely power our home during an outage. Could we have gotten around it and just backed through the dryer outlet or similar? Sure but when (not if) I have to have someone who is unfamiliar with my setup power my home (when I'm not home etc) power my house with my generator I know for a fact it is a safe setup for all involved and there can be no "missed steps" that allow power from my gen set to reenter the grid.
So I don't think others are saying you "can't do it that way" they are just warning against the eventual outcome and what it will cost you or others which includes up to criminal negligence, if anything happens
End rant and I'm sure I'm going to get eaten alone for my statements

I have not had a "wife" for the past 26 years.
No one else lives in this house.
My Labrador retriever (smart as she is) is incapable of generator operation.

Please explain how/if you think that someone might sneak in..... and "hook up" my generator!

I use a generator checklist.

One copy is attached to the generator, one copy is attached to the 30A dryer/welder outlet to be used, and one copy is attached to the main breaker in the service entrance box.

I have 38 years experience following checklists to the letter.
Following checklists has had a lot to do with keeping me alive to 83.

 

[trial and error]

I have not had a "wife" for the past 26 years.
No one else lives in this house.
My Labrador retriever is incapable of generator operation.

Please explain how someone is going to sneak in and "hook up" my generator!

I use a generator checklist.

One copy is attached to the generator itself, and one is attached to the main breaker, in the service entrance box.
I have 38 years experience following checklists.
Following checklists has had a lot to do with keeping me alive to 83.
Ever heard of a "checklist"?

Like I said it works until it doesnt that was literally my only point. I know what a checklist is I have one myself for the generator. Again my point was simply it works until it doesn't, and also just becuase "it works" doesn't make it ethical or right. rules are generally made becuase someone did something stupid and in the case of transfer switches that something stupid HAS cost many people their lives and many others expensive equipment and or injury. You can't make it seem like these rules are stupid just because you want to think "your way of doing it" is foolproof it isn't, otherwise there wouldn't be true stories of dead lineman and broken/damaged equipment burned down houses etc

 

[fried1765]

Like I said it works until it doesnt that was literally my only point. I know what a checklist is I have one myself for the generator. Again my point was simply it works until it doesn't, and also just becuase "it works" doesn't make it ethical or right. rules are generally made becuase someone did something stupid and in the case of transfer switches that something stupid HAS cost many people their lives and many others expensive equipment and or injury. You can't make it seem like these rules are stupid just because you want to think "your way of doing it" is foolproof it isn't, otherwise there wouldn't be true stories of dead lineman and broken/damaged equipment burned down houses etc

In my world, 38 years of checklist use kept us all safe, and it was never about just a guy on a pole somewhere,..... but often up to 417 folks each time/day.
That is just the point:
A checklist is NOT ......MY "way of doing it".
Because it IS a safety checklist, it is a proven SAFE way of doing it!

 

[trial and error]

@fried1765 , its not worth the debate, there are aproved ways of doing things and then there are ways that people think are better quicker cheaper etc. Make no mistake about it though the aproved way of doing things ussually results from someone doing it the quicker cheaper and better way and it not working out, ussually at the cost of someone else. I completely understand that 38 years of doing it a certain way has treated you well and I sincerely hope it continues to . I still stand by what 'Ive said though and in the hope that it will benefit someone who may be less perfect and keep them from making a life changing mistake

 

[fried1765]

Like I said it works until it doesnt that was literally my only point. I know what a checklist is I have one myself for the generator. Again my point was simply it works until it doesn't, and also just becuase "it works" doesn't make it ethical or right. rules are generally made becuase someone did something stupid and in the case of transfer switches that something stupid HAS cost many people their lives and many others expensive equipment and or injury. You can't make it seem like these rules are stupid just because you want to think "your way of doing it" is foolproof it isn't, otherwise there wouldn't be true stories of dead lineman and broken/damaged equipment burned down houses etc

You are correct!
NOTHING IS FOOLPROOF!.
If you stand in a bathtub holding a running hairdryer, you risk getting "juiced" (many homes do not have GFCI's)
The solution?
Don't use hairdryers in bathrooms?

As the old saying goes: "You can't fix stupid" !!!

 

[Bearcatrp]

Been meaning to have installed the electrical box that actually shuts off any power going out. One of these days. From what I have been told, flipping the main breaker off only stops electricity coming in, not going out, which to me doesn't make sense. Off is off. When I tested this setup for 1st time, forgot to shut off main breaker, power coming in. The generator was bucking bad and realized my mistake so shut off generator until i shut off main breaker. Don't know about you but if I were a lineman sent to fix a power line, I sure as hell wouldn't use canvas gloves to grab the downed line. I would have the rubber gloves and equipment to test the line.

 

[Henro]

"The Paris of Appalachia" Now that's funny and i don't care who you are!!

Learn something new every day! I was born in the Paris of Appalachia! Wow! I feel Royal now...

 

[RCW]

I had a thread about portable generator recommendations.

There I said I put 2-240v outlets in my garage’s subpanel, with alterior motive to backfeed the house.

I haven’t in good conscience been able to do so, and am considering a manual transfer switch to connect my genny to.

Know many folks who do backfeed and some should know the risks involved.

 

[chim]

I've done electrical projects since 1968 ranging from heat lamps in a dog house to MV switchgear lineups.

None have been dependent upon someone following a checklist. Smaller installations had something as simple as a double throw switch. Larger jobs had Kirk key interlocks with NO spare keys.

Checklists are something responsible for airplane crashes.

 

[DustyRusty]

I can refuse to allow ANYONE from any service company to enter my home.
In 2023......the "electric gestapo" ????
Better bring the sheriff,...... and by then,...... the evidence will be disconnected.
Could get interesting.

Yes, you can refuse, but you can't stop them from going up the pole and cutting the wires to your home. Have fun trying to get them to put them back after the power outage is restored. The power company can come onto your property and pull the meter also, without your permission. They own the meter and have every right to remove it.