Cooling System Maintenance

[GeoHorn]

The OM on my 1996 M4700DT (5-cyl. diesel) doesn't indicate anything other than standard automotive anti freeze, but the Ferguson compactor/roller I own has a John Deere 4329 in it. The Svc Manual on the JD mandates special antifreeze to avoid "cavitation" on cylinder liners due to detonation which (their words) all diesels experience. The Ferguson was previously owned by the Texas Hwy Dept and they required special features on equipment they acquired....this unit has a spin-on filter in the coolant system which has additives inside to treat the coolant. What I've been able to discover is the additives are supposed to insure that the coolant can fight the "cavitation" issues. Otherwise, JD wants to sell an antifreeze made of Unobtainium with an price to match.
Anyone with technical knowledge have advice on what to do with a Kubota tractor in the 40+ hp range?
Specifically, anything other than standard or long-life antifreeze?

 

[SidecarFlip]

George, far as I know, Kubota's are dry linered engines (pressed in liners) so cavitation is a non issue.

I could be wrong and if I am, I'm sure Wolfman will correct me.... but my M's are.

Having said that I do add DCA4 to the coolant but to prevent corrosion in the radiator, not cavitation of the liners. Next change I'm going from ethylene glycol (green antifreeze) to Global extended life after a careful flush. That way I don't have to add DCA4 anymore.

I also think the newer engines are 'parent bore', that is the cylinder bores are linerless, bored into the block casting.

Again, I may be wrong and if I am Woilfman will correct me.

My owners manuals on both the M's are very vague about coolant as well. Only states a 50-50 mix and no additives called out either.

One thing I don't do is use the really chintzy radiator drain Kubota has in the bottom of the radiator. I pull the lower coolant hose at the radiator bung. Easy to pull and gets it all out.

Been my experience in the past that everything that has to do with JD parts is from unobtainium. least the price is.

 

[mattwithcats]

I use Xerox G-05, a long life antifreeze, without the plastic eating chemical found in Dexcool, in nearly everything...

https://www.rockauto.com/en/tools/cooling+system,fluid+/+chemical,coolant+/+antifreeze,11393
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=10411245

Coolant filter should be unique threads.
Wix 24069 short, 24070 long, no DCA
24071-24075, 1-5 DCA units...
https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/wix,24070,coolant+filter,2132

 

[ipz2222]

tsc has an antifreeze that has an additive in it for diesel engines. It has something to do with static electricity. Can't remember the name of it. I use it in my Kubota and Ford f250 7.3 diesel.

 

[SidecarFlip]

tsc has an antifreeze that has an additive in it for diesel engines. It has something to do with static electricity. Can't remember the name of it. I use it in my Kubota and Ford f250 7.3 diesel.

Intertesting. I use the Ford approved coolant additive in my 7.3 that I bought in 1997 new. That or DCA4.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

George, far as I know, Kubota's are dry linered engines (pressed in liners) so cavitation is a non issue.

I could be wrong and if I am, I'm sure Wolfman will correct me.... but my M's are.

I also think the newer engines are 'parent bore', that is the cylinder bores are linerless, bored into the block casting.

Again, I may be wrong and if I am Wolfman will correct me.

I don't say this very often...so soak it in...You're right on both points.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I use Xerox G-05, a long life antifreeze, without the plastic eating chemical found in Dexcool, in nearly everything...

https://www.rockauto.com/en/tools/cooling+system,fluid+/+chemical,coolant+/+antifreeze,11393
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=10411245

Coolant filter should be unique threads.
Wix 24069 short, 24070 long, no DCA
24071-24075, 1-5 DCA units...
https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/wix,24070,coolant+filter,2132

It's Zerex by the way, not Xerox. Xerox makes copiers not coolant. Far as Dexcool, I'd never use that stuff except in a GM product. (my wife's burb.

 

[GeoHorn]

I don't say this very often...so soak it in...You're right on both points.

W\
Which two points? … LOL...

and.... what do you mean by "newer engines"..?? To me that grew up driving Falcons when Muscle-cars (GTO's, 409-SS's) were poplular … anything later is "newer". My '96 5 cyl Kubota is newer?... or ...older.? As far as I know it's an unlined engine with a cast iron block.

 

[RCW]

Geo -

This thread was a couple weeks ago, might help some:

http://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40410&highlight=coolant

 

[lugbolt]

Replace it often per service manual and you won't ever have to worry about cavitation and electrolysis. Unless otherwise stated, plain old green coolant is fine. The trick is to use de ionized distilled water to mix it 50/50. DO NOT use tap water. Or just buy it already mixed.

 

[JeffL]

If the cooling system is not maintained any diesel engine can suffer from damage from cavitation. Certainly not as common as wet liner engines, liner less or parent metal engines have also suffered failures. Late 80's Ford F250 and up trucks come to mind. Apparently some of these truck owners thought the coolant was lifetime.

Adding to lugbolt excellent advice: every 2 years is "often"

 

[SidecarFlip]

If the cooling system is not maintained any diesel engine can suffer from damage from cavitation. Certainly not as common as wet liner engines, liner less or parent metal engines have also suffered failures. Late 80's Ford F250 and up trucks come to mind. Apparently some of these truck owners thought the coolant was lifetime.

Adding to lugbolt excellent advice: every 2 years is "often"

Is that your opinion or can you substantiate it with hard facts? It's parent bore not parent metal btw.

Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one but most are just that...

Far as Ford diesel engines go (Navistar) not Ford built, the engines are dry linered as well. The reason for the additive DCA4 or Ford coolant systems additive is to protect the oil to water heat exchanger more than anything else and I agree, on any engine, regular coolant changes are required, coolant, like motor oil, the additive package depletes over time.

In essencr what it is, is a bubble forms on the outside of the liner and combustion heat causes the bubble to burst and when it does, the bursting causes the liner material to be exposed to the oxygen. The process repeats itself over and over again and each time the 'pinhole gets deeper and deeper in into the liner material until it reaches the inner wall and then holes the liner. Impossibe to happen with pressed in liners or parent bore engines but I'd like to be enlightened...

All DCA4 or cooling system additive does is provide a 'bandage' if you want to call it that to prevent that pinhole from forming. Nothing more except it also controls the Ph of the coolant so it don't get 'sour'.

I worked around Class 8 diesels for 30 years an I never saw any dry linered engine or parent bore engine have liner cavitation. I'd like to be enlightened if you know something I don't.

 

[JeffL]

Flip,
Which would you like substantiated: Pour coolant maintenance or late 80's Ford diesels? Google either and you can learn a lot.
I'm not familiar with the term parent bore. We have always used parent metal to indicate the feature is machined from the casting, exp: cylinder bores, valve guides. Not really important, someone probably has a third version.
You have the a basic concept of liner cavitation but the actual sequence is a bubble is formed on the liner as result of liner vibration caused by piston slap. Think of the liner ringing like a bell! When the wall moves away from the coolant it creates a low pressure area and the bubble forms. As the liner wall moves back toward the coolant the bubble collapses. Hear is the interesting part: the top of the bubble (furthest from the liner) turns inward creating a jet of coolant that impacts the liner wall at near sonic velocities. This is very violent; does not take long to bore thru a liner wall if the specific conditions are held. The good news is conditions must be perfect and usually only occur for milliseconds or less as the engine cycles thru it's day. Failure of the liner is usually cumulative.
Liner cavitation as describe is only one type of cavitation found in a diesel engines. Coolant flow and velocity create many other types. Many people don't realize it is the imploding bubble or vortex that does the damage and the bubble can be formed anywhere and then travel to a implosion site.
Most additives for controlling cavitation work on the principle of lowering the surface tension of the coolant so a bubble can't form. Red Line Water Wetter works on this principle.
If you worked around class 8 diesel engines then you have more than likely worked around engines that I was involved in the design of the cylinder head and blocks in my 30+ years as a development engineer. In this capacity I have cut open thousands of blocks and heads to solve flow and cavitation issues.
My asshole has more than just an opinion. (sorry couldn't resist that) Jeff

 

[SidecarFlip]

Flip,
Which would you like substantiated: Pour coolant maintenance or late 80's Ford diesels? Google either and you can learn a lot.
I'm not familiar with the term parent bore. We have always used parent metal to indicate the feature is machined from the casting, exp: cylinder bores, valve guides. Not really important, someone probably has a third version.
You have the a basic concept of liner cavitation but the actual sequence is a bubble is formed on the liner as result of liner vibration caused by piston slap. Think of the liner ringing like a bell! When the wall moves away from the coolant it creates a low pressure area and the bubble forms. As the liner wall moves back toward the coolant the bubble collapses. Hear is the interesting part: the top of the bubble (furthest from the liner) turns inward creating a jet of coolant that impacts the liner wall at near sonic velocities. This is very violent; does not take long to bore thru a liner wall if the specific conditions are held. The good news is conditions must be perfect and usually only occur for milliseconds or less as the engine cycles thru it's day. Failure of the liner is usually cumulative.
Liner cavitation as describe is only one type of cavitation found in a diesel engines. Coolant flow and velocity create many other types. Many people don't realize it is the imploding bubble or vortex that does the damage and the bubble can be formed anywhere and then travel to a implosion site.
Most additives for controlling cavitation work on the principle of lowering the surface tension of the coolant so a bubble can't form. Red Line Water Wetter works on this principle.
If you worked around class 8 diesel engines then you have more than likely worked around engines that I was involved in the design of the cylinder head and blocks in my 30+ years as a development engineer. In this capacity I have cut open thousands of blocks and heads to solve flow and cavitation issues.
My asshole has more than just an opinion. (sorry couldn't resist that) Jeff

Again, you cite opinions (yours and Goggle), I want hard facts that cite your presumptions, ie: Technical papers, PDF's, etc. Not opinions. Finally it's Parent Bore, not parent metal. A Parent bore block is a linerless block where the cylinder bores are machined directly into the casting. The industry connotation for that design is Parent Bore. Late model Kubota engines are common rail/parent bore engines. No cooling system additive needed. Same applies to a pressed in liner where the coolant never actually touches the liner physically.

Far as liner impingement as it relates to 'piston slap', again if you can provide hard substantive evidence to that premise, I say that is phooey too.

The Net is chock full of 'opinions' on everything. Oil threads are a prime example. Everyone has their favorite oil and potions. Unless I see hard facts presented in a scientific manner, that is all phooey too.

Engineers that design engines and the companies that build them know better than the consumer who buys them. I go by what the builders recommend. In the case of the 7.3 Navistar, IH and Ford recommends their coolant system additive or DCA4 tested via PH. That is what I use (and the test kit). Kubota calls out nothing in the way of additives so that is what I use. Nothing but conventional antifreeze, or in my case in the future, Global long life simply because the operation life is longer.

 

[GeoHorn]

There's no reason for this discussion to get personally-insulting. The use/mis-use of terms isn't the issue here, and if JeffL participated as a design-engineer on diesel engines I don't require him to provide documentation simply to express what he knows in his professional capacity. (I love reading technical journals instead of watching professional sports and my wife loves that about me... so if JeffL or Flip, either one has a handy reference, I'd love to know about it... but Flip, it's no better for you to express your opinion without substantiating data than it is for you to demand that of others. Not trying to slam you... just thought perhaps you didn't realize that's how it appears.
BTW... how's your recovery doin'? I hope you're doin' better than me... I had a horrible reaction to Cipro antibiotic. Apparently it's common for that drug to give rashes/hives.

 

[SidecarFlip]

There's no reason for this discussion to get personally-insulting. The use/mis-use of terms isn't the issue here, and if JeffL participated as a design-engineer on diesel engines I don't require him to provide documentation simply to express what he knows in his professional capacity. (I love reading technical journals instead of watching professional sports and my wife loves that about me... so if JeffL or Flip, either one has a handy reference, I'd love to know about it... but Flip, it's no better for you to express your opinion without substantiating data than it is for you to demand that of others. Not trying to slam you... just thought perhaps you didn't realize that's how it appears.
BTW... how's your recovery doin'? I hope you're doin' better than me... I had a horrible reaction to Cipro antibiotic. Apparently it's common for that drug to give rashes/hives.

If I came across that way, then I apologize. My comment to you is just follow the recommended guidelines in your owners manual concerning antifreeze, just like I do. I do the same with my 7.3 and have since it was new.

Far as my personal situation, other than having a huge 'birthmark', pretty well. I'm on oral chemo right now, FU5 in pill form so I have the usual side effects, basically tingling hands and fingernail issues but it's a temporary thing. Only 3 sessions (2 weeks each with a week of no chemo in between and the usual blood panels to monitor how the rat poison is doing.... After that I don't know. Still have my surgically implanted port which is handy for blood draws but I'd like to get it out anyway, I find it irritating.

I suspect regular colonoscopies and an infrequent MRI. Least I didn't wind up with a bag forever, still get to use my butt for what it was intended for...lol Last check (last week), everything was good and my CEA level was at 2.5 which is in the normal range (1-5). CEA is the measurement of cancer fighting antibodies in your blood. Over 5, you have issues. I was at 15 prior to all the stuff I went through.

Thank the Lord for good hospitalization. I did lose some eyesight from the chemo, have to wear glasses now. Minot inconvenience compared to what could have been. Could have been a dirt nap.

My liner issues (colon) was addressed and no cavitation issues now.

 

[JeffL]

Flip,
Respect your position but am not going to spoon feed you the knowledge you seek when I know you can search the web. I also believe you can weed thru the crap and get to the facts. Please check my statements and reference your findings I would love to have an open discussion about cavitation. Hey I might learn something new!
Start out with a search of "cavitation in cylinder bores of 7.3 IDI ford diesels." Some good pictures of leaking partent metal bores (also known as parent bores) in the oilburner.net site.
As far as "liner slap" that one might be a little harder to find. You will need to get into the SAE Techanical Papers. I think you can still search and read the Abstract without buying the paper. I can explain it if your open to listen.
Yes, I agree follow the manufactures recommendations. Countless people have destroyed engines for following Salesman recommendations. Might be a little opinion there. Jeff

 

[JeffL]

Flip,
Glad to hear you are doing well, tough road. I am not offended by you or anyone that that questions "facts/opinions" and wants validation. It is the world of an engineer. I was disappointed you put a wall up and demanded a entry charge. Personally, if I read or hear something new or unknown to me I research the topic so I can comment with knowledge in the future.
I almost lost my coffee when I read your comment "My liner issues (colon) was addressed and no cavitation issues now." I once made a very similar comment to my boss while coming out of a heated meeting on injector sleeve cavitation.
Get well my friend! Jeff

 

[SidecarFlip]

Flip,
Respect your position but am not going to spoon feed you the knowledge you seek when I know you can search the web. I also believe you can weed thru the crap and get to the facts. Please check my statements and reference your findings I would love to have an open discussion about cavitation. Hey I might learn something new!
Start out with a search of "cavitation in cylinder bores of 7.3 IDI ford diesels." Some good pictures of leaking partent metal bores (also known as parent bores) in the oilburner.net site.
As far as "liner slap" that one might be a little harder to find. You will need to get into the SAE Techanical Papers. I think you can still search and read the Abstract without buying the paper. I can explain it if your open to listen.
Yes, I agree follow the manufactures recommendations. Countless people have destroyed engines for following Salesman recommendations. Might be a little opinion there. Jeff

No issue. I'll let 'sleeping dogs lie' for now and forever. Why I never post on an oil thread. I don't ascribe to snake oil unless it's a technically proven product. Why I do use Nano-Borate in my diesels, especially the 7.3. It's technically proved to do what the retailer advertises it does. Also why I do a spectroscopic analysis on my drain oils and lubricants and coolants. I'm a black and white person.

Always tell people on here if they suspect engine issues do a burn on the oil. It's the least expensive way to tell what is happening inside any engine and if you have exceeded the additive package's lifetime. I do all my oil and coolant changes based on spectroscopic analysis, always. On oil, TBN numbers never lie and neither do suspended metals content.

Spending 25 bucks on a analysis and having the numbers in front of you is cheaper than tearing into an engine or transmission and replacing parts.

How I do stuff.

 

[GeoHorn]

I'm of a different opinion regarding spectroanalysis of oil samples on otherwise ordinary engines. The only validity that can be gained from that is if the exact same lab using samples collected exactly the same method/timing is used consistently.
Otherwise, change oils/fluids in accordance with mfr recommendations and do the regularly required service. Anything else is a waste of money that can be used for fuel, etc. (I'm speaking of privately-owned equipment...not large, commercial operations such as railroads, etc.)