Bx22 starts but shuts off in ON position

[Jdb86]

Bx22, 500 hours

Read a few similar threads to get me started, starting issue is related to fuel shut off solenoid.

Engine starts but shuts off when key moved to ON position. Per suggestion I replaced solenoid with aftermarket, found fuse blown and replaced that. Tractor runs when solenoid completely removed.

Solenoid retracts when key in START, but extends when key is in ON. Blew fuse a few times while diagnosing.

Using multimeter, confirmed 12V to red wire when ON and 12V to white when start.

Should solenoid retract when ON? I'm thinking timing relay but can't find that? Any other help to diagnose?

Thank you!

 

[capp]

Bx22, 500 hours

Read a few similar threads to get me started, starting issue is related to fuel shut off solenoid.

Engine starts but shuts off when key moved to ON position. Per suggestion I replaced solenoid with aftermarket, found fuse blown and replaced that. Tractor runs when solenoid completely removed.

Solenoid retracts when key in START, but extends when key is in ON. Blew fuse a few times while diagnosing.

Using multimeter, confirmed 12V to red wire when ON and 12V to white when start.

Should solenoid retract when ON? I'm thinking timing relay but can't find that? Any other help to diagnose?

Thank you!

 

[capp]

I have to buy one of those shut-off solenoids almost every year. I raised the hood and removed the screws to the bonnet. I slide it back so I could see the shout off solenoid. I then tied a piece of string to the part that cuts the motor off make sure the string is long enough to make it shut off the motor. Put the bonnet back on off you go. This is a quick fix that will that did to get you through fall cutting season was almost upon us. It sucks to have to buy this part every dad burn year. There is a switch behind the right rear tire that that is very sensitive. I'd try that to if I was you.

 

[Henro]

Bx22, 500 hours

Read a few similar threads to get me started, starting issue is related to fuel shut off solenoid.

Engine starts but shuts off when key moved to ON position. Per suggestion I replaced solenoid with aftermarket, found fuse blown and replaced that. Tractor runs when solenoid completely removed.

Solenoid retracts when key in START, but extends when key is in ON. Blew fuse a few times while diagnosing.

Using multimeter, confirmed 12V to red wire when ON and 12V to white when start.

Should solenoid retract when ON? I'm thinking timing relay but can't find that? Any other help to diagnose?

Thank you!

The BX22 is the same vintage as my BX2200, and remember when you look at the wiring diagram, that the D905 engine does not use a timer relay.

If I remember right, one coil of the relay is powered through what must be contacts in the starter.

The solenoid armature (plunger rod) stays retracted when the engine is supposed to be running. If yours is not, that is the issue. I do not recall which coil is energized by the starter circuit...how quick one forgets details as he gets older!

There was a thread about this exact thing recently, with some diagrams posted by DaveENG and some details posted by me.

Perhaps you already saw it. I remember there could be two fuses involved with the run solenoid, but one might be the 30 fuse.

Sounds like you may have a shorted/grounded wire in the leg that is blowing the fuse. Does it blow when the solenoid is disconnected? (But looking at your post again, you mention that you have voltage on both wires, I assume that is with the solenoid unplugged?)

Note that the starter will not turn when the solenoid is disconnected. What is inside the starter is not clearly defined by the electrical schematic, but with my solenoid disconnected it acts the same as it would with a start safety circuit issue. I think the start coil of the solenoid is powered by the safety circuit, but did not confirm this.

Not sure if anything I typed above will help. If you find that thread I referred to, I think I listed the ohm readings of the replacement solenoid I got.

One other thought. Did you happen to remove and reconnect any wires? The solenoid as I remember had two ohm readings that were different. One was low, the other higher. If the wires were reversed I can see the problem you are experiencing happening.

Measure the resistance of the solenoid coils. Make sure the one with the lowest resistance is connected to the wire which comes from the starter. They could be reversed in the aftermarket solenoid you bought, if you did not do any wiring removal/replacement.

 

[Henro]

I have to buy one of those shut-off solenoids almost every year. I raised the hood and removed the screws to the bonnet. I slide it back so I could see the shout off solenoid. I then tied a piece of string to the part that cuts the motor off make sure the string is long enough to make it shut off the motor. Put the bonnet back on off you go. This is a quick fix that will that did to get you through fall cutting season was almost upon us. It sucks to have to buy this part every dad burn year. There is a switch behind the right rear tire that that is very sensitive. I'd try that to if I was you.

Impossible to do this on my BX2200, which must be different than the newer BX2230 you have. The OP's tractor is I believe the same as mine, but in the TLB form. BUT I an not completely sure about this. It was the TLB version offered when I bought my BX2200.

 

[Jdb86]

The BX22 is the same vintage as my BX2200, and remember when you look at the wiring diagram, that the D905 engine does not use a timer relay.

If I remember right, one coil of the relay is powered through what must be contacts in the starter.

The solenoid armature (plunger rod) stays retracted when the engine is supposed to be running. If yours is not, that is the issue. I do not recall which coil is energized by the starter circuit...how quick one forgets details as he gets older!

There was a thread about this exact thing recently, with some diagrams posted by DaveENG and some details posted by me.

Perhaps you already saw it. I remember there could be two fuses involved with the run solenoid, but one might be the 30 fuse.

Sounds like you may have a shorted/grounded wire in the leg that is blowing the fuse. Does it blow when the solenoid is disconnected? (But looking at your post again, you mention that you have voltage on both wires, I assume that is with the solenoid unplugged?)

Note that the starter will not turn when the solenoid is disconnected. What is inside the starter is not clearly defined by the electrical schematic, but with my solenoid disconnected it acts the same as it would with a start safety circuit issue. I think the start coil of the solenoid is powered by the safety circuit, but did not confirm this.

Not sure if anything I typed above will help. If you find that thread I referred to, I think I listed the ohm readings of the replacement solenoid I got.

One other thought. Did you happen to remove and reconnect any wires? The solenoid as I remember had two ohm readings that were different. One was low, the other higher. If the wires were reversed I can see the problem you are experiencing happening.

Measure the resistance of the solenoid coils. Make sure the one with the lowest resistance is connected to the wire which comes from the starter. They could be reversed in the aftermarket solenoid you bought, if you did not do any wiring removal/replacement.

Is the 30 fuse somewhere separate from the other sets of fuses? I checked the 6 or 8 fuses (one of which repeated blew), don't recall seeing a 30amp fuse though

 

[Jdb86]

Impossible to do this on my BX2200, which must be different than the newer BX2230 you have. The OP's tractor is I believe the same as mine, but in the TLB form. BUT I an not completely sure about this. It was the TLB version offered when I bought my BX2200.

Yes, it is the bx22 tlb. I did see there is a lever adjacent to solenoid that pulls the shutoff rod in (not the solenoid prod, rather the rod that is activated from the solenoid). So technically I COULD remove the solenoid and replace by a string....but really looking for a fix and not short term work around.

 

[Henro]

Yes, it is the bx22 tlb. I did see there is a lever adjacent to solenoid that pulls the shutoff rod in (not the solenoid prod, rather the rod that is activated from the solenoid). So technically I COULD remove the solenoid and replace by a string....but really looking for a fix and not short term work around.

in that case you tractor must be different than the bx2200.

if you go to Kubota books.com you should be able to download the bx22 workshop manual. That should help you.

edit: may not be there. BX25 and BX23S seem to be, but do not see a BX22 there. But I thought I remembered one there...do look just in case.

 

[Dave_eng]

My post last night was based on the assumption that since the stop solenoid on the BX22 was the same one as the B21 the wiring and logic would be the same.

THIS was a wrong assumption

Below is the test procedure from a BX22 WSM

Dave

 

[Henro]

My post last night was based on the assumption that since the stop solenoid on the BX22 was the same one as the B21 the wiring and logic would be the same.

THIS was a wrong assumption

Below is the test procedure from a BX22 WSM

View attachment 50818




Dave

Boy, that procedure sure looks exactly like the one in the workshop manual for my BX2200!

But in my case I saw no lever to manually shut off the fuel, but maybe I missed it, do not know.

Anyway, let me state what the resistance of the two coils of the replacement solenoid were. The solenoid has been working fine since installation a few months ago.

I measured 21.5 ohms between black and red wires. And 0.48 ohms between white and black wires. I did not deduct the slight amount of resistance in the leads. The VOM was a descent Fluke 8060A.

I do not wish to confuse the issue, and as I said the BX22 may be different than my BX2200, although both were sold at the same time. Just adding this as it may be useful.

Important thing is that the low resistance coil in the solenoid will pull high amps if connected across the battery directly. Calculates out as being greater than 20 amps. If this coil were hooked into the hold circuit side, it would blow the fuse every time (but not the 30 amp fuse).

Since the White-Black wires are defined in the WS procedure as the pull-in circuit, I would confirm those wires going into the solenoid have lower resistance than the Red-Black wires, which are connected to the hold circuit coil.

OR just follow the WS manual procedure and see what happens. If things work backwards, it would indicate the replacement solenoid is wired backwards internally. This would be the easiest thing to do I guess.

 

[Henro]

Boy, that procedure sure looks exactly like the one in the workshop manual for my BX2200!

But in my case I saw no lever to manually shut off the fuel, but maybe I missed it, do not know.

Anyway, let me state what the resistance of the two coils of the replacement solenoid were. The solenoid has been working fine since installation a few months ago.

I measured 21.5 ohms between black and red wires. And 0.48 ohms between white and black wires. I did not deduct the slight amount of resistance in the leads. The VOM was a descent Fluke 8060A.

I do not wish to confuse the issue, and as I said the BX22 may be different than my BX2200, although both were sold at the same time. Just adding this as it may be useful.

Important thing is that the low resistance coil in the solenoid will pull high amps if connected across the battery directly. Calculates out as being greater than 20 amps. If this coil were hooked into the hold circuit side, it would blow the fuse every time (but not the 30 amp fuse).

Since the White-Black wires are defined in the WS procedure as the pull-in circuit, I would confirm those wires going into the solenoid have lower resistance than the Red-Black wires, which are connected to the hold circuit coil.

OR just follow the WS manual procedure and see what happens. If things work backwards, it would indicate the replacement solenoid is wired backwards internally. This would be the easiest thing to do I guess.

Well it turns out I actually have a printed copy of the BX22 WSM. Was given to me by a coworker who bought a BX22 years ago. And looking at it the electrical circuit for the BX22 is exactly like what is on my BX2200.

At this point, I need to go back and see exactly what the OP is saying his problem is. But what I posted above regarding my tractor, should apple equally to the BX22.

I tried to find the other thread where specific details regarding this exact problem was discussed. I failed. Would like to blame the site search feature, but it is probably my lack of ability in searching.

Pages 6-M2 and 6-M3 in the BX22 WSM show the electrical schematic.

 

[capp]

I have to buy one of those shut-off solenoids almost every year. I raised the hood and removed the screws to the bonnet. I slide it back so I could see the shout off solenoid. I then tied a piece of string to the part that cuts the motor off to make sure the string is long enough to make it shut off the motor. Put the bonnet back on off you go. This is a quick fix that will that did to get you through fall cutting season was almost upon us. It sucks to have to buy this part every dad burn year. There is a switch behind the right rear tire that that is very sensitive. I'd try that too if I was you.

To add to my reply, sometimes you can turn the key to start and then back to stop and you will hear a click sometimes I have to do this over and over to get it to start right, I think that is caused by the switch behind the right rear tire. I'm going out to the shop and work on this again as soon as it warms up.
Capp

 

[Henro]

To add to my reply, sometimes you can turn the key to start and then back to stop and you will hear a click sometimes I have to do this over and over to get it to start right, I think that is caused by the switch behind the right rear tire. I'm going out to the shop and work on this again as soon as it warms up.
Capp

We need the OP to report back, but in the meantime, I do not think his question on where the 30 amp fuse is located was answered. I do not know the exact answer, but do know from reading previous posts here, that it may be a main fuse that is in line somewhere, and not part of the fuse block. I know the fuse block on my BX2200 does not have a 30 amp fuse in it. And it looks like the BX22 is very close to identical to my tractor, after looking at the BX22 WSM copy that I have.

Capp, I wish I had your good hearing! Mine is not that great anymore...only advantage is I do not hear a lot of my wife's complaints (just joking, she really does not complain much)... OR I just do not hear them...have to think about this...

 

[whitetiger]

We need the OP to report back, but in the meantime, I do not think his question on where the 30 amp fuse is located was answered. I do not know the exact answer, but do know from reading previous posts here, that it may be a main fuse that is in line somewhere, and not part of the fuse block. I know the fuse block on my BX2200 does not have a 30 amp fuse in it

The 30 amp fuse is a "Slow Blow" fuse located right behind the Starter in the Wiring Harness.

 

[Jdb86]

Ok, sorry for the delay, I wasn't able to get back to my garage until this morning. Thank you all for the help and the link to the diagnosis book, very helpful.

Still not working but I understand the problem better. Part of my issue is that I confirmed the old oem solenoid doesn't work... the resistance across both white and red is 0.6 ohms. The resistance across the new aftermarket is 32 ohm for the red and .7 for the white. I believe I have been ch a sing my tail using the old solenoid which is the cause of blowing 20amp fuse. When I replace the fuse, I get 12v with key on for red wire at solenoid.

I followed the diagnosis of the new aftermarket solenoid and it operates appropriately, retracting when power applied to the white and staying retracted after I push it with power to red. I also verified my ignition switch is working appropriately.

What I found, however is this: when I plug the new aftermarket solenoid into the 3p connector but remove from the engine, and turn ON, I push the rod and it holds. I turn switch off and it extends appropriately. When I turn to START the rod retracts appropriately, however when I turn to ON the rod stays extended, but if I push it in, it holds...its getting power.

I have 2 theories: there is a blip in power going from start to on where the solenoid extends and cuts fuel, obviously this isn't the intent. This could be caused either from defective ignition switch (again i confirmed but perhaps there's some slack between the settings where the circuit isn't closed) or the aftermarket solenoid isn't great and can't tolerate this momentary blip.

I plan to buy a new ignition switch and oem solenoid.

Also, I did find the 30amp fuse and it passed continuity.

Thank you all for the help, would appreciate any feedback on my diagnosis.

 

[Henro]

Ok, sorry for the delay, I wasn't able to get back to my garage until this morning. Thank you all for the help and the link to the diagnosis book, very helpful.

Still not working but I understand the problem better. Part of my issue is that I confirmed the old oem solenoid doesn't work... the resistance across both white and red is 0.6 ohms. The resistance across the new aftermarket is 32 ohm for the red and .7 for the white. I believe I have been ch a sing my tail using the old solenoid which is the cause of blowing 20amp fuse. When I replace the fuse, I get 12v with key on for red wire at solenoid.

I followed the diagnosis of the new aftermarket solenoid and it operates appropriately, retracting when power applied to the white and staying retracted after I push it with power to red. I also verified my ignition switch is working appropriately.

What I found, however is this: when I plug the new aftermarket solenoid into the 3p connector but remove from the engine, and turn ON, I push the rod and it holds. I turn switch off and it extends appropriately. When I turn to START the rod retracts appropriately, however when I turn to ON the rod stays extended, but if I push it in, it holds...its getting power.

I have 2 theories: there is a blip in power going from start to on where the solenoid extends and cuts fuel, obviously this isn't the intent. This could be caused either from defective ignition switch (again i confirmed but perhaps there's some slack between the settings where the circuit isn't closed) or the aftermarket solenoid isn't great and can't tolerate this momentary blip.

I plan to buy a new ignition switch and oem solenoid.

Also, I did find the 30amp fuse and it passed continuity.

Thank you all for the help, would appreciate any feedback on my diagnosis.

When the solenoid on my BX2200 failed I had essentially the same resistance readings as you do. Low resistance on both coils.

You said: "When I turn to START the rod retracts appropriately, however when I turn to ON the rod stays extended, but if I push it in, it holds...its getting power."

When you go to the start position, the rod should retract and stay retracted when the switch is returned to the ON position. What you are describing seems to be correct operation (Your wording is a bit confusing). The rod does not retract until the switch is turned to the start position. The hold coil only holds the rod in after the pull in coil pulls the rod in.

I would suggest you try the solenoid with it hanging in the air (you may have already done this, but I am not certain), and start the tractor, and see what the rod does. It should pull in when the engine turns over and stay pulled in when the switch is returned to the ON position. (The tractor just needs to turn over, not start, as the pull in coil is energized through the starter solenoid circuit).

If it seems to work like this, I would delay buying the OEM solenoid.

Like you say, the ignition switch could be de energizing the hold coil when you move it from start position to ON position. You will know more if you watch the solenoid operate when you start the tractor with the solenoid hanging if the air.

You could run a temporary jumper from the 12 volts somewhere to the red wire of the solenoid, and see if the solenoid rod stays retracted when you start the tractor and return the switch to the ON position, if it does not work properly when you try it using the ignition switch. If the rod stays retracted when you start the tractor with the jumper in place, your problem is not the run/stop solenoid.

From your description, it certainly sounds like it may be an ignition switch problem. Couple more tests as mentioned can likely isolate the problem and save you the $100 plus that an OEM solenoid costs (and which from your description you probably do not need).

 

[Jdb86]

Success!
OEM solenoid did the trick and I'm back & running. My final diagnosis (with lots of help from all of you):

Original OEM solenoid failed and blew 20amp fuse. Aftermarket solenoid did not function properly, combined with using original solenoid to diagnose & repeatedly blowing 20amp fuses confounded diagnosis.

Replacing with new OEM solenoid & fuse solved the problem. Good lesson to use OEM parts! I did replace my ignition switch with new aftermarket in the process, and I'll keep it installed but hold onto the old one. For $30, seemed worthwhile to have a spare on hand... the new switch also feels a bit "tighter" than the older one.

Thanks again for everyone's help! Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[Henro]

Success!
OEM solenoid did the trick and I'm back & running. My final diagnosis (with lots of help from all of you):

Original OEM solenoid failed and blew 20amp fuse. Aftermarket solenoid did not function properly, combined with using original solenoid to diagnose & repeatedly blowing 20amp fuses confounded diagnosis.

Replacing with new OEM solenoid & fuse solved the problem. Good lesson to use OEM parts! I did replace my ignition switch with new aftermarket in the process, and I'll keep it installed but hold onto the old one. For $30, seemed worthwhile to have a spare on hand... the new switch also feels a bit "tighter" than the older one.

Thanks again for everyone's help! Happy Thanksgiving.

Just to be clear, you installed the OEM solenoid, and did nothing else, and the problem went away, correct? THEN you changed out the ignition switch, since you had bought a new one, right?

It sounded like your assessment that the ignition switch might have been a problem was quite reasonable. And if you only changed the solenoid and the issue went away, obviously the after marked solenoid (plus the original failed solenoid) was the problem.

Curious because my $30 solenoid has worked perfectly. I would not discourage anyone from trying a $30 solenoid first, since the price difference between the OEM and aftermarket is about $100.

Edit:

I had typed the above and decided not to bother posting it...but it got posted anyway for some reason.
I just came back and was going to say you convinced me in your previous post that it was very likely your ignition switch was somehow the current issue, rather then the replacement solenoid...too much verbiage in my response above...

 

[Jdb86]

Just to be clear, you installed the OEM solenoid, and did nothing else, and the problem went away, correct? THEN you changed out the ignition switch, since you had bought a new one, right?

It sounded like your assessment that the ignition switch might have been a problem was quite reasonable. And if you only changed the solenoid and the issue went away, obviously the after marked solenoid (plus the original failed solenoid) was the problem.

Curious because my $30 solenoid has worked perfectly. I would not discourage anyone from trying a $30 solenoid first, since the price difference between the OEM and aftermarket is about $100.

Edit:

I had typed the above and decided not to bother posting it...but it got posted anyway for some reason.
I just came back and was going to say you convinced me in your previous post that it was very likely your ignition switch was somehow the current issue, rather then the replacement solenoid...too much verbiage in my response above...

At this point. I'm not 100% certain. I replaced the solenoid with aftermarket without luck, kept that installed and replaced aftermarket ignition switch with no luck. Kept the aftermarket ignition switch and put in new oem solenoid which did work. Since it works, I'm not touching it! The aftermarket solenoid was operating but as I mentioned it appears there was a small blip in continuity when the key went from Start to On, definitely possible a manufacturing dwfect in solenoid, or perhaps there's something else going on which the oem solenoid is just more tolerant too.

I'm okay with this mystery not being 100% solved!

I do agree that for $30, trying out a aftermarket solenoid is a smart start. Though a good reminder to be skeptical of new equipment!

 

[Henro]

At this point. I'm not 100% certain. I replaced the solenoid with aftermarket without luck, kept that installed and replaced aftermarket ignition switch with no luck. Kept the aftermarket ignition switch and put in new oem solenoid which did work. Since it works, I'm not touching it! The aftermarket solenoid was operating but as I mentioned it appears there was a small blip in continuity when the key went from Start to On, definitely possible a manufacturing dwfect in solenoid, or perhaps there's something else going on which the oem solenoid is just more tolerant too.

I'm okay with this mystery not being 100% solved!

I do agree that for $30, trying out a aftermarket solenoid is a smart start. Though a good reminder to be skeptical of new equipment!

Thanks for keeping us updated. Glad it worked out in the end!