Alternator Ideas

Kytim

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Hey Guys, cant sleep much so my mind is streaming a few ideas tonight to amuse itself. First off, I'm wanting to locate an internally excited alternator (1 wire) prefer GM for a project. problem is part stores around here are telling me nothing like that exists or was ever made, Bull-ony! Dad work at a dealership for years and years but he's gone now and I don't know what to ask for it to have come off of. Anyone know? doesnt have to be high amperage, 45-90amp is fine. Would prefer V-belt design but I could change fan and sheaves from a serpentine, or to reverse if necessary. most dont care which way they run, just that the fan cools them.

Thanks ya'll
 

Stumpy

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Dec 1, 2011
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Nothing like that exists or was ever made? It's so hard to find good help these days.

Internally regulated alternator are everywhere but the majority do not use one wire. If you really want a one wire Eric's got you covered but this might be something to ponder. Were it me I'd go poke my head in some hoods down at the local junkyard and then tell the poor dears at the parts store the make and model so they don't get confused.
 

Eric McCarthy

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Problem with the parts store these days is the young bucks behind the counter who dont know how to flip threw a book, but would rather just point and click their way for parts on the computer. I've had the very same problems trying to find parts for my 88 Chevy C30 one ton. Most parts I can still get but every now and then I break something stupid and go all over creation trying to find a replacement part. So I end up having to do my homework and search for the part online myself and get a part number and then take it to the store and have them pull it up.
 

Kytim

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Nope!, got sidetracked with a daughter. That napa lookup should have occurred to me, but didn't. Anyways, that will give me all the ammo I need to get an alt. What I intent to do is put a small, 2 1/2hp, 4 stroke engine I have in service instead of setting on the shelf. A smallish portable battery charger, or coupled with a battery pressed into use as a powersupply. A one wire alt is self exciting and low cutting-in. Meaning "No" batt needed to start charging and starts charging almost immediately at very low RPM and is internally regulated to boot.

All just a playtoy I suppose. But coupled with a Batt, and a inverter in makes a small Generator as well. Lawn mower batt would even do.

Just a silly ol' man(47) playing with toys and dreaming of more!
 

Kytim

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YuuP!, thats pretty much it. Just its main purpose will be 12V nominal. If anything else was needed, i.e. 110v, it could be done using 4ga. jumpers to a Batt to inverter to load. Under 1200w 110v it should still be efficient enough to be pressed into very rural/light service. but then again, main use would be charging/jumping automotive Batts. could have used something like this twice in last 3 weeks. No elect anywhere close, cars parked all around, yada yada yada.

I know, when I was working as a Lic master HVAC and electrician my most fun was designing control circuitry for large stationary equip using off the shelf components in unconventional ways to streamline operation. Just like exercising my mind doing outta da box stuff.
 

Kytim

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I hadn't looked at Jeg's yet. I'll throw an eyeball on it. Of course economy shouldn't be forgotten either. I've never priced a mini alt before. The size/weight would be great! I'll have to consider them.

Thanks for the heads up!!!
 

asbug

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Feb 11, 2011
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Hey Guys, cant sleep much so my mind is streaming a few ideas tonight to amuse itself. First off, I'm wanting to locate an internally excited alternator (1 wire) prefer GM for a project. problem is part stores around here are telling me nothing like that exists or was ever made, Bull-ony! Dad work at a dealership for years and years but he's gone now and I don't know what to ask for it to have come off of. Anyone know? doesnt have to be high amperage, 45-90amp is fine. Would prefer V-belt design but I could change fan and sheaves from a serpentine, or to reverse if necessary. most dont care which way they run, just that the fan cools them.

Thanks ya'll
Someone is making a welder on their tractor!
KC
 

dmanlyr

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L3200, Hustler Super Z
May 30, 2012
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Marine engines used the Delco one wire alternators for years.

OMC, MerCruiser are good places to start. Any good electrical shop can also make you a one wire as they are close to the same as a three wire, just a different regulator and a special plug that bridges where the two wire plug goes on the three wire alternators.

All of these alternators are 37 -42 am though as that was the norm for the time frame when these were new OEM equipment. The thottle also has to be blipped slightly to get them to first charge.

After almost 40 years now in the Marine field, I have been around literaly thousands of these.

BUT - YOU HAVE TO HAVE A BATTERY in the circuit as it also works as a capacitor as well a B+ storage device. This is for ANY alternator. No automotive based alternator will last long without a battery in the circuit.

David
 

kubotasam

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I could be wrong but I am under the assumption that any automotive alternator needs 12 volts supplied to it to initialize the electromagnets to start creating power.
 

dmanlyr

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I could be wrong but I am under the assumption that any automotive alternator needs 12 volts supplied to it to initialize the electromagnets to start creating power.
Yes, you are correct, by design, Many auto alternator systems need a power source to create the initial magnatism, as a they are designed without conventional, permament magnets. (note auto style alternators cannot self excite) You can start a 12v alternator with a 9v battery temporarily applied, + to the field terminal and - to ground in a pinch.

That is why with a totaly dead battery, even with a point ign system you cannot push or tow start a car. There has to be some power left to energize the field to create that initial magnatism. Output is controlled by varing the field voltage, which directly varies the field magnets strength, and a lesser magnetic field will induce less output. Hence a 200 amp alternator is not always producing 200 amps, but varies acording to the load, which is regulated by, well, somethign called a regulator.

Alternator output is AC, rectified to DC. This "rectified" is built into the alternator in the form of the diode trio - three negative and three positive in the case of many auto alternators. In a nutshell, half of the AC wave is shunted to ground, and the result is DC left, simplified explamation, and there are some other designs, but basicly you are using half of the AC wave.

True genertors by definition have residual magnatism due to large field magnets. These are self exciting systems. Dead battery, no problem, as soon as the generator starts to turn, voltage is produced. The output is DC, directly usable by our DC tractor and automotive systems.

There are some hybrid alt/gens out there that do not need a battery to start charging. A common use of these is on outboard motors. The stator is normally fixed, and the rotor has magnents. The output is AC voltage, again rectified to DC. BUT there is one important difference to note. The output is constant for a paticular RPM. Yes, FIXED as the field magnatism cannot be alterered as the rotor has permenment magnets at a fixed strength. This system "self" excites anytime the rotor is turning.

Where does the extra constant output go? It cannot just evaporate or disappear, it has to go somewhere, so see the next paragraph...

If you have a fixed, constant output alternator type charging system, without a dispersal system that turns the excess power generation to something, IE if you need 20 amps, and the system is putting out 50 amps, that power HAS to go somewhere!! Most commonly it is turned to heat (resistance grid, either air or water cooled) Or, electrical things, normally the rectifier first, will began to cook themselves.

Again, a battery also works as a capacitor to absorb voltage spikes, which electronics do not tolerate well, of course how well depends upon the duty for which they were built for, as well as a power supply source. This is the case withany charging systems, be them AC, DC, alternator or generator.

Even the largest power producer, Hoover dam, if the load is suddenly removed from a system, voltage spikes and shocks can do serious damage.

Some people pull there positive lead off the battery to check and see if the alternator is charging..... WRONG! If you were to put a volt meter in the system, and if the alternator was working, you might see voltage spikes of up to 33-35+v. While most of the time people get away with this, it shortenes the electronic components life as well as any energized lamp filiments.

David
 
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Lil Foot

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Excellent dissertation, thanks!
 

Kytim

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Eric, I wish I had great news to share with you but, I dont. This summer was a bust for me. I have some issues with my hands that cause major problems sometimes. unfortunately this summer the problems became worse and I ended up having to have surgery, again. At least my left thumb moves again and with very little pain now. Bad thing is, the left was my good hand! LoL I'll be back to wrenching again by spring.