Adding rear hydraulics

[OldcrowP51]

I have a L3901 and don't have any implements that require hydraulics at this time but you never know when a new toy becomes irresistible.
For a winter project I'm thinking of adding a 2 circuit system with one for use on top link.
I'm thinking I would like to build my own vs buying a universal kit.
You prefer electric solenoid control or manual lever?
Float feature needed for either circuit?
I would like your thoughts on the must haves or dos and don'ts

 

[jyoutz]

I have a L3901 and don't have any implements that require hydraulics at this time but you never know when a new toy becomes irresistible.
For a winter project I'm thinking of adding a 2 circuit system with one for use on top link.
I'm thinking I would like to build my own vs buying a universal kit.
You prefer electric solenoid control or manual lever?
Float feature needed for either circuit?
I would like your thoughts on the must haves or dos and don'ts

Manual lever and you may as well go with 3 remotes while you’re doing this.

 

[NCL4701]

Manual because you can control flow with a manual valve. Electric is on/off. Depending on what you’re doing the fine control allowed by flow control of a manual valve can be important (such as when adjusting a toplink precisely).

I have float on one of my three rear remotes. I run it on the toplink for rotary cutter. Run it on the sidelink for pulling gravel out of ditches with backblade (follows varying contour of the ground). You might or might not have a use for it. Downsides to float: 1) If you want a cylinder (such as toplink) to be absolutely set and forget rock solid, you’ll need to get one with pilot operated check valves. You can’t float a cylinder with check valves so it’s not useful for a check valved cylinder. That’s not a right/wrong, it’s just a FYI before you buy. 2) It costs more than a center return valve.

Agree if you’re adding rear remotes, go with three sets. That gives you toplink, sidelink (option to go all the way with the top/tilt on the 3 point when you experience how sweet that hydraulic toplink is), plus another for an implement. Labor is pretty much the same as adding two. Of course part cost is more.

BTW, I’m aware there are some rather expensive industrial application type electric valves that are capable of mimicking the flow control intrinsic to manual valves, but the subject is rear remotes on a CUT.

 

[Hugo Habicht]

Manual because you can control flow with a manual valve. Electric is on/off. Depending on what you’re doing the fine control allowed by flow control of a manual valve can be important (such as when adjusting a toplink precisely).

Off topic smartass post:

Well, I do not entirely agree. While there are electrical on/off valves there is also the servo controlled variety. In a former life I designed electronics for hydraulic servo valves and I achieved better than 400 Nanometers spool positioning repeatability. You try to do that by hand

Flow control was actually the easy part, it gets difficult to do pressure control (force on the hydraulic cylinder) with an enclosed oil volume without flow. Here pretty much 90% pressure change happens over only about 1% spool movement.

Kind regards,
Hugo

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Off topic smartass post:

Well, I do not entirely agree. While there are electrical on/off valves there is also the servo controlled variety. In a former life I designed electronics for hydraulic servo valves and I achieved better than 400 Nanometers spool positioning repeatability. You try to do that by hand

Flow control was actually the easy part, it gets difficult to do pressure control (force on the hydraulic cylinder) with an enclosed oil volume without flow. Here pretty much 90% pressure change happens over only about 1% spool movement.

Kind regards,
Hugo

Just curious, but how much do the servo valves that you mentioned cost?

 

[Hugo Habicht]

Just curious, but how much do the servo valves that you mentioned cost?

The smaller direct drive valves sold for about $650 (25 years ago). They were used for industrial applications (paper machines, etc.). But I believe prices have come down and there are a lot of hydraulic servo controls used in Tractors now.

 

[bhaack]

While I understand the reasons for the adding of electro-whatever controls to modern tractors, I refuse to buy them.
There's no finesse left for the operator. I can't slip the clutch on my PTO shaft engagement anymore to save the thing on the other end of the pto shaft. 400 milliseconds of modulation in that computer controlled clutch valve is stupid. Give me a lever that can have 40 seconds of modulation, possibly at the destruction of the clutch, but that's my clutch, I get to fix it and I get to decide how much slippage is necessary and acceptable. Same with teasing the hydraulics. So, I will limit myself to vintage or antique equipment that will allow me to do so.
Keep in mind engineering departments, You're not making any money off of me cause you won't produce a machine that does what I say, instead of treating my operational commands as suggestions.

 

[NCL4701]

Off topic smartass post:

Well, I do not entirely agree. While there are electrical on/off valves there is also the servo controlled variety. In a former life I designed electronics for hydraulic servo valves and I achieved better than 400 Nanometers spool positioning repeatability. You try to do that by hand

Flow control was actually the easy part, it gets difficult to do pressure control (force on the hydraulic cylinder) with an enclosed oil volume without flow. Here pretty much 90% pressure change happens over only about 1% spool movement.

Kind regards,
Hugo

True. Which is why I stated at the end of my original post:

“BTW, I’m aware there are some rather expensive industrial application type electric valves that are capable of mimicking the flow control intrinsic to manual valves, but the subject is rear remotes on a CUT.”

I quite confident based on your post you know much more about the practicalities and potential impracticalities of adapting such valves for use on rear remotes for a CUT, so if there are any considerations the OP should be aware of in using such valves as an option, I will leave that topic to you.

Edit: And for newer large ag tractors, electric operated variable flow hydraulic valves controlled via a touch screen are not uncommon. Again, not the topic of the thread.

With respect…

 

[old and tired]

I have a L3901....

Same "standard" tractor as mine but more hp... You have an "open center system with power beyond" (important when buying the valve)
....adding 3 circuits (toplink sidelink and grapple)
....build your own.
....manual lever
....No Float (I have top and side links with pilot operated check valves, so no leak down!)
....Dos; add needle valve or restrictor to reduce the speed of the top link flow

Getting to understand what you are doing takes a little time (easy since you can ask questions here). I bought my stuff at Surplus Center, I bought a Wolverine by Prince MB series (which cost more but I *think* is better quality - I have NO infor to back that up!!!) I also want one that was close to the same flow as my tractor (less than 8 gpm).

3 Spool 8 GPM Prince MB31BBB5C1 DA Valve | Directional Control Valves | Hydraulic Valves | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com

3 Spool 8 GPM Prince MB31BBB5C1 DA Valve, Directional Control Valves, 3 SPOOL 8 GPM PRINCE MB31BBB5C1 DA VALVE, COMPACT 3 SPOOL DOUBLE ACTINGPrince Mfg,MB31BBB5C1 ,

www.surpluscenter.com

I mounted that to my tractor, so I can measure the hose lengths I needed. I mounted it on top of the FEL since that did not clutter up the rear of the tractor and I mainly used it for the grapple. It is ugly but I only had to buy one hose to hook up the valve. (you need other hoses to hook up the ports!!!)

Basically, I removed the power beyond hose of the FEL and attached it to the new Valve's Power Beyond port Then I needed to connect the two, got a hose that went from the old PB and connected to the Power IN of the new valve. Only thing left to do was to connect the low pressure Return to Tank "T" ports together (That's the only line you can "T" together). Since they were so close, I used fittings to connect the two lines.

 

[bhaack]

did you return any oil to the transmission outside of the power beyond ports on the 3pt valve?

 

[old and tired]

did you return any oil to the transmission outside of the power beyond ports on the 3pt valve?

Not sure if that was directed at me... I tried to make it more clear above, yes, the old FEL return to tank and the new valve were tied together via. fittings before connecting to the hose that returned to the tank...

Also, on the link above for the valve, there are instructions and dimension of the valve.

 

[bhaack]

Not sure if that was directed at me... I tried to make it more clear above, yes, the old FEL return to tank and the new valve were tied together via. fittings before connecting to the hose that returned to the tank...

Also, on the link above for the valve, there are instructions and dimension of the valve.

yes, and thanks for the schematic.

 

[McMXi]

I have a L3901 and don't have any implements that require hydraulics at this time but you never know when a new toy becomes irresistible.
For a winter project I'm thinking of adding a 2 circuit system with one for use on top link.
I'm thinking I would like to build my own vs buying a universal kit.
You prefer electric solenoid control or manual lever?
Float feature needed for either circuit?
I would like your thoughts on the must haves or dos and don'ts

I can't imagine having a tractor without a minimum of three rear remotes out back. I have both SCD and FD remotes in both tractors and would certainly recommend at least one float valve (FD). The M6060 came with one SCD and one FD so I added a third FD since I see no disadvantage to the float option and plenty of advantages. I float all manner of implements such as the snow blower, folding cutter, flail, land leveler etc. Any time the rear wheels are on one plane and the implement on another float is nice to have.

It'll be interesting to see what you come up with. I've had the Kubota dealer install three rear remotes and two MX6000s and the M6060 and I like the factory look and function even if it costs more than a DIY kit.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

I can't imagine having a tractor without a minimum of three rear remotes out back. I have both SCD and FD remotes in both tractors and would certainly recommend at least one float valve (FD). The M6060 came with one SCD and one FD so I added a third FD since I see no disadvantage to the float option and plenty of advantages. I float all manner of implements such as the snow blower, folding cutter, flail, land leveler etc. Any time the rear wheels are on one plane and the implement on another float is nice to have.

It'll be interesting to see what you come up with. I've had the Kubota dealer install three rear remotes and two MX6000s and the M6060 and I like the factory look and function even if it costs more than a DIY kit.

Do you have issues with either of your tractors rear remotes having to be constantly readjusted? As in can't go for an hour without corrective adjustments.
This means internal control valve leakage.
I have seen this being a very common issue with all the tractors smaller than the M series machines after 2013-14 models. So for the last 10 years or so.

Just curious, some people have no issues, many do.

 

[McMXi]

Do you have issues with either of your tractors rear remotes having to be constantly readjusted? As in can't go for an hour without corrective adjustments.
This means internal control valve leakage.
I have seen this being a very common issue with all the tractors smaller than the M series machines after 2013-14 models. So for the last 10 years or so.

Just curious, some people have no issues, many do.

Good question and I don't really have an answer. The only tasks that require me to be on the tractor for 6 to 8 hours are cutting related, so running the flail, rotary cutter or folding rotary cutter. I run the flail behind the MX and I'm constantly adjusting it since it has hydraulic offset and head rotation (two sets of remotes required) and I use the hydraulic top link but solid side link so I don't really know if I'm getting internal control valve leakage. I run the flail head rotation in float so that the cutting head follows the terrain.

The folding cutter needs two hydraulic circuits, one to raise the entire cutter, and one for the "wings". I run the wings in float and the cutter height is set with stops so once it's down, it's down for the duration.

 

[McMXi]

Do you have issues with either of your tractors rear remotes having to be constantly readjusted? As in can't go for an hour without corrective adjustments.
This means internal control valve leakage.
I have seen this being a very common issue with all the tractors smaller than the M series machines after 2013-14 models. So for the last 10 years or so.

Just curious, some people have no issues, many do.

One isssue I've had which is annoying and messy is one of the rear remotes on the M6060 leaks. It's the top one closest to the camera, and I get some wetting all over the rear of the tractor if I leave that particular hose connected. When I insert the hose fitting into the coupler, oil squeezes out from under the black seal ring so I'm fairly sure it's a seal issue. I can't find a schematic of the fitting anywhere online but will replace seals this spring.

I ordered a seal kit from Faster which was a pain to track down, but I was able to order one from an hydraulic shop in North Dakota. It's probably in my PO box already.

 

[Hugo Habicht]

I quite confident based on your post you know much more about the practicalities and potential impracticalities of adapting such valves for use on rear remotes for a CUT, so if there are any considerations the OP should be aware of in using such valves as an option, I will leave that topic to you.

I have to admit that despite having designed electronics for valves I did not take the opportunity of getting deeper into hydraulics applications. I regret this today. I only tested the valves on a test bench for flow, pressure, frequency response, accuracy etc.etc.

 

[OldcrowP51]

I already have 3rd function installed for grapple use.
My primary interest for rear remotes is hydraulic top link.
If I do add the rear remotes I figure might as well add two circuits in case I get a implement requiring hydraulics.

I like the idea of electric system due clean install.
Only have two hoses running out back and wires going to controls in the cockpit.
I just don't think you get good feel with the open/closed switch operation.

Cockpit on L3901 is not that big so nice clean install is a big concern.
I'm thinking I can make a mounting bracket for manual control valve under the FEL control valve but then you have 4 or 6 hoses running to the back.

 

[NCL4701]

OEM is hard to beat for clean install. Pretty easy to beat on cost, though. Not sure if you have factory slots for remotes, but assume you do.

 

[jyoutz]

OEM is hard to beat for clean install. Pretty easy to beat on cost, though. Not sure if you have factory slots for remotes, but assume you do. View attachment 146558 View attachment 146559

Yeah, I like my OEM remotes and levers.