A tractor to NOT buy....

[D2Cat]

Saw this ad and thought it would be an example of what some folks think is normal.

"Kubota B2150 Diesel 24hp small compact tractor with big ole fat turf tires (won't tear up yard) with good tread life. It has rear AND belly PTO. I upgraded machines and no longer need this. The hours will go up as I still use it occasionally. It is in fair condition. It is hard to start but I use starting fluid it fires right up and runs good. It may just need a tune up or I was told a new glow plug?? It has some other minor issues but the important things (motor, transmission, hydraulics, PTO) all work darn good."

https://seks.craigslist.org/grd/d/kubota-24hp-diesel-tractor/6677031453.html

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

The use of Starting fluid is a sad death for any kubota!

 

[sdk1968]

hee hee...

for $1800... id probably still buy it.

why? cause im an addict & cant stop myself.

 

[bxray]

Does it come with a can of starting fluid or do I have to bring my own!?

 

[SDT]

Saw this ad and thought it would be an example of what some folks think is normal.

"Kubota B2150 Diesel 24hp small compact tractor with big ole fat turf tires (won't tear up yard) with good tread life. It has rear AND belly PTO. I upgraded machines and no longer need this. The hours will go up as I still use it occasionally. It is in fair condition. It is hard to start but I use starting fluid it fires right up and runs good. It may just need a tune up or I was told a new glow plug?? It has some other minor issues but the important things (motor, transmission, hydraulics, PTO) all work darn good."

https://seks.craigslist.org/grd/d/kubota-24hp-diesel-tractor/6677031453.html

Starting fluid is highly addictive.

I never touch the stuff.

Dean

 

[twomany]

What would be the failure mode , that is "weakness or shortness of service life" for a tractor engine that is used with starter aid, and had not yet failed?

The Cat crawler I had was provided with a fitting in the cab to install a can of starting aid.
Thus simplifying the injection of same.

It seems that some engines are OK with the stuff, or some people are just clueless.
Perhaps both.

 

[BAP]

Ether and glow plugs don't play well with each other. Older diesels are more forgiving to Ether because they don't have the plugs. I remember the days of having the tractors plugged in all night, battery charger on it, space heater blowing up underneath with a tarp over the top, minus 30 degrees Fahrenheit, can of Ether and hoping like Heck that the tractors would start to feed 900 head of Dairy Cows. I remember but don't miss that at all.

 

[twomany]

Ether and glow plugs don't play well with each other. Older diesels are more forgiving to Ether because they don't have the plugs. I remember the days of having the tractors plugged in all night, battery charger on it, space heater blowing up underneath with a tarp over the top, minus 30 degrees Fahrenheit, can of Ether and hoping like Heck that the tractors would start to feed 900 head of Dairy Cows. I remember but don't miss that at all.

The justification goes back to "clueless".

Feeding cattle on a cold North Dakota winter,... well, we did what we had to.

 

[D2Cat]

The various tractors of yester year that had a method for getting ether into the engine to facilitate starting were designed so the spray was directed into the intake as the engine was turning over. Some newer engines do the same thing but it is controlled by the computer.

This is a quote from a Cat tech.

"Certain engines can take ether, others can't. For larger displacement, lower compresion engines, ether is almost a must, even when they've been plugged in, they just need a little extra kick to get things burning. Ever see somebody start an "all out" smoker pulling tractor?, usually you see one or two guys dowsing the intake with ether, they usually have an extra can or two right next to them to keep 'em running too! But, on a smaller, high compression, N/A engine, even a small amount can give you a present from the "ether bunny".

Caterpillar uses ether injection on the newest, latest, greatest, electronic engines right from the factory, but they have taken control of it's use as well. There is no ether aid button on the dash, it's controlled by the ECM and gives a little shot while cranking when the coolant temp is low enough, the ECM also records the amount of ether use the engine has had over it's lifespan. Trust me on this, Cat doesn't do anything that might cost them warranty money.

That said, yes, loading up the intake with a large dose of ether and hitting the starter can and will cause broken rings, scored liners and even bent connecting rods on any engine. Also, if you have any sort of intake heater device, keep the "can of summer air" well away unless you can disarm the heater - seen a cast aluminun intake / JWAAC that was blown completely off the engine on a little Perkins when the intake air heater kicked in.

So, with a little knowledge of the engine you're trying to start, and a little common sense on it's use, ether can be the difference between starting, towing inside, or sitting 'till spring, you'll have to be the judge on that."

I highlighted with read to emphasize.

 

[Fordtech86]

I remember when I first got into working on trucks at the dealership,diesel trucks had a warning label about using starting fluid,old man I worked with told me you gotta be careful using starting fluid to start a diesel with it,I was luckily the kid in the truck turning the key while he sprayed the starting fluid,glad that old man survived the time the intercooler hose and whole air filter box blew up in his face when he did that,s**t flew everywhere

 

[twomany]

The various tractors of yester year that had a method for getting ether into the engine to facilitate starting were designed so the spray was directed into the intake as the engine was turning over. Some newer engines do the same thing but it is controlled by the computer.

This is a quote from a Cat tech.

"Certain engines can take ether, others can't. For larger displacement, lower compresion engines, ether is almost a must, even when they've been plugged in, they just need a little extra kick to get things burning. Ever see somebody start an "all out" smoker pulling tractor?, usually you see one or two guys dowsing the intake with ether, they usually have an extra can or two right next to them to keep 'em running too! But, on a smaller, high compression, N/A engine, even a small amount can give you a present from the "ether bunny".

Caterpillar uses ether injection on the newest, latest, greatest, electronic engines right from the factory, but they have taken control of it's use as well. There is no ether aid button on the dash, it's controlled by the ECM and gives a little shot while cranking when the coolant temp is low enough, the ECM also records the amount of ether use the engine has had over it's lifespan. Trust me on this, Cat doesn't do anything that might cost them warranty money.

That said, yes, loading up the intake with a large dose of ether and hitting the starter can and will cause broken rings, scored liners and even bent connecting rods on any engine. Also, if you have any sort of intake heater device, keep the "can of summer air" well away unless you can disarm the heater - seen a cast aluminun intake / JWAAC that was blown completely off the engine on a little Perkins when the intake air heater kicked in.

So, with a little knowledge of the engine you're trying to start, and a little common sense on it's use, ether can be the difference between starting, towing inside, or sitting 'till spring, you'll have to be the judge on that."

I highlighted with read to emphasize.

D2Cat

Your wonderful writings are helpful and informative. Alas, they leave the question unresolved.

Just what would be the failings in an engine used with starting aid, considering any broken rings of broken con rods were not already evident?

I'm sure "scored cylinders" would be a possible result, but a foul air filter could end with similar result.

It can be confusing, but how can one tell. At a price, If the smoke blew clean, I would not dismiss this tractor from consideration.

 

[SDT]

What would be the failure mode , that is "weakness or shortness of service life" for a tractor engine that is used with starter aid, and had not yet failed?

The Cat crawler I had was provided with a fitting in the cab to install a can of starting aid.
Thus simplifying the injection of same.

It seems that some engines are OK with the stuff, or some people are just clueless.
Perhaps both.

Some engines are "OK" with some amount of properly administered ether.

Some engines are not OK with just about any amount of ether improperly administered.

Broken ring lands, rings, etc., are the common causes of ether addiction.

A much better procedure is a gasoline soaked rag carefully (and securely) held over the intake manifold while cranking.

SDT

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

It's hard to nail down the damage that starting fluid can cause, I've seen the list of damages, broken rings and pistons are at the top of the list.

I would say most ether damaged engines have low compression, they can knock and smoke, and will always hard start even in the warmest environments.

 

[twomany]

Difficult

Objective

Subjective

and then there is the emotional... ;-)

Burning lube oil can be high hours or ring/bore damage.
The objective difference between worn and broken.

If worn, How worn. Subjective. There might be thousands of hours left if the crankcase oil is looked after.

The last one, I have no experience with. I get attached to my machines, but I don't get emotional over them or how they are used. I have them to use them, and don't mind when the shine gets buffed off.

 

[shootem604]

I used to work for this old guy doing concrete work when I was a kid. He was pouring a very long driveway at his own place with a yard here and there leftover from his other jobs, sometimes transported there in the back of his little pickup. He told me that waaay back in the day when he was building the house his first truck could never make it up the hill with concrete in the back unless he had his helper stand on the running board with a can of ether to spray into the air filter.

Don't know what kind of truck, but he was old, and the truck had running boards and an easily accessible intake.