2011 RTV 500 Low Compression

[Tooljunkie]

Automotive experience here, replaced many a timing belt in my lifetime,any moving part that is run by belt needs replacing. Cleaning is done by whatever means, wire brush and compressed air. Brake cleaner to degrease. WD40-NO!!
No lubricants of any kind in or near timing belt area.

Belts fail, some just pop, others fail due to a bad bearing,tensioner or a failed oil seal or water pump. Seen them broke,teeth ripped off and some just shredding from debris getting in from a hole or missing timing cover.

The cam popping over centre is a good sign,i think. Likely all the valvetrain is intact.
So maybe not a bad deal after all. Throw in the manual ,parts and tools and i think you will still be ahead.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Yes you can remove the bolt and then the bearings will come off the tensioner arm, might take removing the whole arm and soaking it in something first.

I would also replace the water pump while I was in there.

Yes you can blow everything off and out.

Yes just wire brush the gears, But as Tooljunkie said no wd40.

You already answered why the belt broke, the tensioner probably seized up and broke the belt!

If you don't know this yet, you can go to kubota.com and get part #'s and diagrams of how things go in it.
Go to http://kubota.com/part/partsList.aspx and click on legal on the bottom, then put in RTV500 and pick the top one on the list.

Sounds like your going to have one killer little deal when your done!
There was another one in your picture... Go back and pick it up for me!

 

[Tooljunkie]

Yes! If water pump is in there, run by timing belt, replace it too.

Aftermarket automotive suppliers are now supplying all parts in a kit,with detailed instructions. Dodge 3.0 v6 timing belt runs the water pump,so its in the kit. Cam and crank seals are a good idea too.also supplied in the auto kits.

 

[L185 Owner]

Hello All: wanted to give an update and ask a few more questions.

When I left off last time the timing belt was broken. I ordered a new one, printed out the WSM on how to "time" the engine. That is a fancy way of saying line up a few dots. The crank gear has a arrow that has to line up with a line in the engine and the cam gear has a dot that has to be at top center. Line those up and your half way there. From there i had to get the belt on the crank gear. That is tougher than you think and I had to reset the crank gear because it moved on me while I was setting it. Slip the belt around the water pump and over the cam gear. Then the hard part....gat the belt over the tensioner!! I got it on.....said a prayer turned the key and.......it fired right up and ran like a top. I drive it for 10 minutes...no issues....I serviced it the next day....drive it for 20 minutes and it runs good. Time for questions!!!

When I was putting on the belt I noticed antifreeze leaking!! I was warned to replace the water pump...took a chance on it because it wasn't leaking but now it is. Could it just be the gasket? I bought a gasket and a used water pump. I hope that solves it. Although I'm going to have to redo all my other work!!! Same area...the timing belt has about 1/2" delfelction in it. Is that too much? Can seem to get it much tighter?? The other question is what kind of problems could I run into by pressure washing everything? There is dried mud and dust on everything, I don't want to short out electrical components but would like to clean the unit up as well as I can.

Lastly, I want to thank everyone again for all your help!! I couldn't have done it without your help and guidance particularly again a fellow from Idaho. I know I'll have more questions as I start to work on the smaller items but am looking forward to enjoying the little giant a while first before i go too crazy!! If I can help any of you please let me know.

 

[Tooljunkie]

A leaking water pump can be the root cause of the failure. If belt was a little shredded then i would think thats it. If belt was a clean break then old age is the cause. Now new belt on and pressure on water pump bearings has changed and its now leaking. $10 says your used replacement pump will fail also.

Happy to see you have it running. Pressure washing around engine may be ok,but keep away from any electrical as you will force water into connectors. Garden hose rinse and a little engine shampoo shouldnt hurt it.

 

[L185 Owner]

Need help!!

Going to replace the water pump, but I can't get to the top bolt. I am trying to take the cam gear off but I can't get it to stay still and I can't fit an impact on the nut that appears to hold it on??!!

What am I missing? How can I get the cam gear off or replace the water pump without taking off the cam gear? I can fit a ratchet in the nut on the cam gear but can't hold it still to break it loose!!!

Btw the engine is still in the machine. I called the dealer and they said they replace them with the engine out. Not really a possibility for me.

 

[D2Cat]

How about posting a picture showing your challenge?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Either a strap wrench to hold the cam gear or put a bar in one of the holes of the gear and have the bar engage a part of the head or gear case (make sure it's a thick part).

 

[L185 Owner]

Do I have to take the cam gear off to get the water pump off? It looks like to do. I can't get the holes of the cam gear to line up with the top bolt of the water pump. Curious if I'm missing something?

Another question about removing the cam gear. If I take the gear off is it SUPER IMPORTANT that it goes back on the EXACT SAME ORIENTATION? I am going to have to re-time the engine and it seems like if i take the gear off I'm going to have to be certain it goes back on the SAME WAY it came off. If not how could it be correct to re time the engine?

I tried a bar on the gusset of the gear. Broke a small piece off so I got pretty hesitant to put a lot of pressure on it. I have the old timeing belt. Tried wrapping it around the cam gear and holding it....no real luck. Gonna try the bar and see it it work. I wish I didn't have to take it off to get to the damn water pump!!

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Yes you have to pull the gear, it's keyed so it will only go back on the right way.

 

[L185 Owner]

Good deal on it being keyed. That makes me feel better. I was afraid you would tell me I had to take the gear off. Gonna double down and see what I can do. Worst case I break it and buy another one!!

Thanks for the help. I'll keep you posted on the outcome.

 

[Tooljunkie]

Yes you have to pull the gear, it's keyed so it will only go back on the right way.

I would examine it, some gears appear identical inside and out so a paint mark to remove any doubt and prevent a simple mistake. Inadvertently reversed gear may throw timing off.

 

[L185 Owner]

Update and Another Call for Help.

Replacing the water pump has proven to be a massive under taking. First I learned to take the water pump off you have to take the cam gear off. Well that sounds simple but there is NO WAY to hold the gear and turn the bolt that hold that cam gear. So I tried holding it and wedging it and broke the gear. From there I decided enough was enough. I removed the gas tank and drilled a hole in the side of the gas tank holder that's in line with the cam bolt. Don't know why Kubota doesn't put this there at the factory. I made it about 3/4 inch big for a 1/2 impact extension could go through. Put an extension through the hole, used the impact wrench, bolt breaks loose, mission accomplished right??! Just pull the gear off and your done. I wish!! NO WAY it's gonna be that easy!!

I tried tugging on the gear with my hands....no movement. Put a block of wood on the engine and pried with a screw driver....the gear broke off. It's seized!! It appears the gear is graphite or carbon. Not sure why that is but it is brittle and breaks easily. Now it have a problem and the opening I needed to replace the water pump and gasket. Replaced the water pump but that brought me back to my new problem. The cam bolt is out, the gear is broken off and it Is seized on the cam. I now have a new problem.

I can't get a gear puller in there to pull off the gear. How deep is the gear? What is behind the gear? Has this ever happened to anyone and what did they do? I've soaked it in WD40 and tapped with a hammer.....nothing. I'm thinking of cutting off half the gas tank holder to get to gear to try and pull it. Need help before I go down a bad path!!

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

A little advice... slow down and less force, especially when its with plastic or composite parts!

Two simple choices to get the gear off:
1: Use a heat gun on the pulley hub and pull the hub off.

2: Use a sharp chisel and split the hub then it will come right off the cam.

Here is what it looks like behind the pulley (30).

 

[Tooljunkie]

I would say it has loctite or something retaining it. A heat gun to warm it up should free it from the shaft.
So was it really that difficult to remove engine for easier access ?
When i worked at ford the cylinder head jobs were do-able with a good step and long arms. Tech takes four hours to pull cab and he gets to work on it like a gentleman.

I know it will be a task, but maybe removing engine will be a step forward.

 

[L185 Owner]

Okay. I got a heat gun from my brother in law. I have uploaded a few pictures in an effort to better show what my situation is. A few questions:

1. Is 070 in the picture below behind the engine block? For example when i get the cam gear off is 070 going to come off or is it inside the engine as a holder of he cam? Youll see in the photos i think mine is inside the engine??

2. Am i at risk of damaging any seals with the heat gun? My plan is to heat the sides of the gear and the front of the gear and maybe that will expand it enough so it will begin to wiggle off. Any advice on the best way to heat and pull is welcome, this will be my first time messing with a heat gun and stuck gear.

3. The inside of my gear has a metal collar. You can see it in the pics. Does that go all the way back? Im asking because if the heat gun doesn't work then im either in the cut out gas tank holder business or the chisel business. If i chisel and find a metal collar all the way around all the way back....seems like i would pretty much be where it started. I should be able to get a gear puller on it....if i cut part of the gas tank holder out.

4. If i pull on this thing with my hands/pliers am i at risk of moving the cam too much left and right? It seems like a gear puller would be better to push against the cam while it pulls the gear??

Any way. These are a few thoughts and photos of what the situation looks like on the ground. If anyone has more wisdom they would like to share im in Apollo 13 Mode.....all brains on deck to get this broken gear off and the machine running again!!

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

#70 is an oil seal, it is just driven into the front case.
It's very likely with all the work, you'll need to replace that seal too.

And don't pry on the front of the engine anymore, it's thin and you don't want to break it.

One thing that helps me evaluate how to deal with something is to get the new part then you will know exactly what your dealing with.

 

[Russell King]

If it gets to where you need to take drastic steps it looks like you could use a small grinder (dremel) to grind through the gear ABOVE THE KEY, then get the gear off and replace the key.

Come up with some methods to keep grinding debris out of the engine.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[L185 Owner]

Update - and a promise for a separate thread.

To all. I completed the operation this weekend. I removed the cam gear, installed a new one, installed the timing belt, cranked up, it ran great, and put everything back together. Drove it around and it is solid. Now for some details. Before I go any farther a BIG THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP - EVERYONE ESPICIALLY WOLFMAN YOU HAVE BEEN KEY. THANK YOU TO ALL. No for some details.

So I'm going to create a new post to describe how to replace the water pump on one of these units because there is not much out there on how. I even called my dealer and their best mechanic told me he's sorry he could help because he has never replaced a water pump. I know my experience will help someone else who has to go through this.

On to the removing the broken cam gear. I bought a cheap 3" gear puller on amazon. I knew it was a long shot, I've tried these things before on different tasks and they always let me down. This time was the same. Too big, jaws were wrong and cheap. It has a place but not for this job. To hedge against that I bought a 2 jaw POSI-LOCK 102. It's a 1 ton puller but most importantly the size of an iPhone 5 inches. These things are the real deal. If you need a puller check them out. I have a 8" 12 ton puller that I have used 10 times and it is a beast. These folks are a puller company and are American made and are for serous work. If you want quality and reliability check them out.

If you ever have to remove a broken cam gear on these things then you'll realize you only have 5 inches or less between the cam gear and the gas tank holder. Space is at a premium so a real tool is essential. To start the posi lock puller is about a half inch too big....PROBLEM...only if you let be. I actually took the snap ring off the puller, put it through the hole I drilled and was able to get a decent bite on the gear. Well I screwed in the cam bolt, screwed in the piston on the puller and what I found was the strength of the seize on the gear was greater than the ability of the gear to withstand the pull. In lay mans terms, when I pulled the plastic/graphite broke and the gear stayed put. I tried about 10 times, pulled almost all of the edge of the gear off and no movement. At this point I'm thinking I'm in for a long day.

So I removed the puller and realized I had about 1/8 of the gear past the cam. At this point I gave into the idea that only heat, hammers, and penetrants were going to the leg work on this one and it had to be with some surgical precision. So for about 2 HOURS I used a drew driver on the lip of the gear and hit, sprayed, heated with a heat gun, ROTATED, THIS WAS KEY, and kept doing this. After about an hour and a half I noticed everytime I sprayed wd40 it go really rusty really quickly so I'm knew I was making progress.

At this point I decided to try the puller again. It took me 3 tries but but I was able to get a good bite finally and I knew I had a good chance. This time it moved. So I reset the puller behind the gear for a better bite and off it came. I got the gear off cleaned the area up and cleaned the rust off the cam shaft. From here I'm about 3 hours in so I slid on the new cam gear, installed the timing belt, cranked it up to make sure it sounded okay timing wise. Was good so I proceeded to put everything back together. That took about 2 hours because I replaced the alternator belt and had to tighten the belt and the bolt on the alternator was seized!! Shocker right!!

Bottom line is it's running great. I am going to post a bother thread on replacing the water pump because there is not a lot of resources out there other than a place like this and I and I know others would be lost without it. So my hope is I pay it forward. Thanks again. Let me know if this has been fun to follow and helpful. Let me know if I can help anyone here. I'll post some pics when I get to a computer in the comin days.

 

[Billdog350]

Cool to hear that you ended up getting your RTV running for what sounds like $1500 between the purchase and parts...and then a few dozen hours of labor.

Now you need to make sure to change your oil at the factory recommended intervals, as well as the coolant every 5 or so years....same with the belts as needed.

Too bad Kubota doesn't make a gas engine as simple and reliable as their TIMING GEAR driven diesels....a timing belt design is CRAPPY no matter how you look at it.

I refuse to buy any vehicle or engine with a timing belt. A timing chain is better and timing GEARS is best....why would you trust something spinning 6000+rpm in all sorts of temperatures with a RUBBER belt? Beyond comprehension. Its like they WANT the engines to blow up.