Creep / Leak? down. B1630 loader on B7100HST-B

[TerryKing]

Hi Everyone,

New To Me B7100 and B1630 loader.. 900+ hours on meter. Hydraulic fluid nice and clear. I'm no hydraulic expert!

The one-handle control is pretty worn and loose. Hoses replaced.

The bucket creeps down towards dump slowly. The lift creeps down much more slowly.

What is happening here?? Valve wear? Cylinder leak-by? How can I diagnose?

What is the process for fixing this??

Regards, Terry King
...In The Woods In Vermont
The one who dies with the most Parts LOSES! WHAT DO YOU NEED??

 

[TheOldHokie]

Hi Everyone,

New To Me B7100 and B1630 loader.. 900+ hours on meter. Hydraulic fluid nice and clear. I'm no hydraulic expert!

The one-handle control is pretty worn and loose. Hoses replaced.

The bucket creeps down towards dump slowly. The lift creeps down much more slowly.

What is happening here?? Valve wear? Cylinder leak-by? How can I diagnose?

What is the process for fixing this??

Regards, Terry King
...In The Woods In Vermont
The one who dies with the most Parts LOSES! WHAT DO YOU NEED??

I have a B1630 loader on a B7200D and have fought these battles.

The bucket sag is likely caused by worn seals in the cylinders. IMO rhe most cost effective fix is two new generic replacements. I would strongly recommend a cylinder test to verify thats the problem before replacing the cylinders.

If there are no external leaks the boom drifting down is internal spool leakage in the control valve. If its bad enough to be a real problem the fix is a new aftermarket loader valve. Lots of choices starting @ $275 and going much higher.

Dan

 

[torch]

Hi Everyone,

New To Me B7100 and B1630 loader.. 900+ hours on meter. Hydraulic fluid nice and clear. I'm no hydraulic expert!

The one-handle control is pretty worn and loose. Hoses replaced.

The bucket creeps down towards dump slowly. The lift creeps down much more slowly.

What is happening here?? Valve wear? Cylinder leak-by? How can I diagnose?

What is the process for fixing this??

Regards, Terry King
...In The Woods In Vermont
The one who dies with the most Parts LOSES! WHAT DO YOU NEED??

Some creep is normal. A brand new machine will often creep down over time. It's just the nature of the beast. How slow is slow? 5 seconds? 5 minutes? 5 hours?

A floppy and/or imprecise joystick is usually caused by loose or worn linkages above the actual spool valves (there's two of them). The valves slide in and out; the linkage is needed to convert the up/down/left/right single lever movements into in/out dual valve movements. You may need to remove any rubber boot covering the levers and pins to check.

If you find loose machine screws in the linkages, a drop of thread locker (eg: locktite) on the threads can prevent them from loosening again in the future.

 

[mendonsy]

I had all 4 cylinders on my LA302 loader rebuilt by my local dealer earlier this year. The loader had always leaked down since it was new but had become worse in the last couple of years. Since the rebuild it doesn't leak down at all. I left it about 2" off the ground on purpose and a week later it had not moved at all.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I had all 4 cylinders on my LA302 loader rebuilt by my local dealer earlier this year. The loader had always leaked down since it was new but had become worse in the last couple of years. Since the rebuild it doesn't leak down at all. I left it about 2" off the ground on purpose and a week later it had not moved at all.

Then you have the only spool valve in the world that does not leak.

Dan

 

[TerryKing]

Dan: "
The bucket sag is likely caused by worn seals in the cylinders. IMO rhe most cost effective fix is two new generic replacements. I would strongly recommend a cylinder test to verify thats the problem before replacing the cylinders.

If there are no external leaks the boom drifting down is internal spool leakage in the control valve. "

Dan, I have no external leaks; does that mean the cylinders are OK?? How can I test / discriminate to find what is the problem?
-----------
TORCH: "
Some creep is normal. A brand new machine will often creep down over time. It's just the nature of the beast. How slow is slow? 5 seconds? 5 minutes? 5 hours?

A floppy and/or imprecise joystick is usually caused by loose or worn linkages above the actual spool valves (there's two of them). The valves slide in and out; the linkage is needed to convert the up/down/left/right single lever movements into in/out dual valve movements. You may need to remove any rubber boot covering the levers and pins to check. "

Creep on bucket from full up to almost down is 15-20min I think. Creep from full up loaded to problem lower creep is 1 to 2 minutes.

Yes there is a LOT of slop in all the valve linkages. Really worn. I was thinking of finding oversize pins and redrilling many of them. Ever seen that done? I could live with it if stuff was not leaking down.
------------
All: "Rebuilding cylinders" ? What is involved? Pull cylinder apart, seals? Piston seals? I do not have any external leakage.

THANKS Guys... I do want to fix this sometime in reasonable future.

Regards, Terry King
...In The Woods In Vermont
The one who dies with the most Parts LOSES! WHAT DO YOU NEED??

(SS comes in tomorrow; then I'll get a membership ... )

 

[TheOldHokie]

Dan: "
The bucket sag is likely caused by worn seals in the cylinders. IMO rhe most cost effective fix is two new generic replacements. I would strongly recommend a cylinder test to verify thats the problem before replacing the cylinders.

If there are no external leaks the boom drifting down is internal spool leakage in the control valve. "

Dan, I have no external leaks; does that mean the cylinders are OK?? How can I test / discriminate to find what is the problem?
-----------
TORCH: "
Some creep is normal. A brand new machine will often creep down over time. It's just the nature of the beast. How slow is slow? 5 seconds? 5 minutes? 5 hours?

A floppy and/or imprecise joystick is usually caused by loose or worn linkages above the actual spool valves (there's two of them). The valves slide in and out; the linkage is needed to convert the up/down/left/right single lever movements into in/out dual valve movements. You may need to remove any rubber boot covering the levers and pins to check. "

Creep on bucket from full up to almost down is 15-20min I think. Creep from full up loaded to problem lower creep is 1 to 2 minutes.

Yes there is a LOT of slop in all the valve linkages. Really worn. I was thinking of finding oversize pins and redrilling many of them. Ever seen that done? I could live with it if stuff was not leaking down.
------------
All: "Rebuilding cylinders" ? What is involved? Pull cylinder apart, seals? Piston seals? I do not have any external leakage.

THANKS Guys... I do want to fix this sometime in reasonable future.

Regards, Terry King
...In The Woods In Vermont
The one who dies with the most Parts LOSES! WHAT DO YOU NEED??

(SS comes in tomorrow; then I'll get a membership ... )

The joysticks on those valves are just plain crappy. Loosey-goosey is the name of the game. Dont waste time trying to fix the linksge - just buy a new valve.

To test your bucket cylinders disconnect both base end hoses and cap/plug the ports on the cylinders. Start the tractor, rev engine, and move the joystick to curl and hold it there. If any cylinder extends its leaking internally. Be careful you do not move joystick to dump - you will have a garden hose size oil shower.

I am having problems with your leakdown times. Is that 1-2 minutes for the bucket to dump or 1-2 minutes for the raised bucket to drop to the ground?

Dan

 

[TerryKing]

I am having problems with your leakdown times. Is that 1-2 minutes for the bucket to dump or 1-2 minutes for the raised bucket to drop to the ground?
Dan

Sorry let me try again:
Bucket from full up, creep to dump position about 15 mins
Bucket full up, full of dirt. down to "problem" about 2 mins
Lift bucket about 2 feet off ground, creep to ground ?? Maybe 20+ minutes.

?? Do "new" valves come with the single handle mechanism? Or can just the valve block be replaced?

Thanks!! Regards, Terry

 

[TheOldHokie]

Sorry let me try again:
Bucket from full up, creep to dump position about 15 mins
Bucket full up, full of dirt. down to "problem" about 2 mins
Lift bucket about 2 feet off ground, creep to ground ?? Maybe 20+ minutes.

?? Do "new" valves come with the single handle mechanism? Or can just the valve block be replaced?

Thanks!! Regards, Terry

New loader valves look like this one: Comes complete and ready to bolt on in place of the old valve and joystick. Even this low dollar ($275) valve is a massive improvement over.OEM.

Hydraulic Directional Control Valve for Tractor Loader w/ Joystick, 2 Spool (Single Float Spool Optional), 11 GPM

FREE SHIPPING This Monoblock Hydraulic Directional Control Valve uses a Joystick, 2 Spools and has a capacity of 11 GPM. These valves are used to start and stop fluid flow into hydraulic cylinders or hydraulic motors.

summit-hydraulics.com

I am still having troble with your leakdown times.

How long for a loaded bucket to go from head height to on the ground?

How long for a loaded bucket to go from full curl to dump?

Dan

 

[torch]

At 900 hours on the meter, I wouldn't think there'd be a lot of miles on the cylinders themselves. No pitting or rusting on the rods? They could be leaking internally, but it's equally possible the spool valves are leaking. Or both.

If you are going to replace the control valve due to the sloppy linkage, I'd do that first and then evaluate the leak down rates. No point in spending a lot of time on diagnosing if the control is to be replaced.

 

[TheOldHokie]

At 900 hours on the meter, I wouldn't think there'd be a lot of miles on the cylinders themselves. No pitting or rusting on the rods? They could be leaking internally, but it's equally possible the spool valves are leaking. Or both.

If you are going to replace the control valve due to the sloppy linkage, I'd do that first and then evaluate the leak down rates. No point in spending a lot of time on diagnosing if the control is to be replaced.

The meter on my B7200 says about the same - but its rolled over at least twice....

Dan

 

[torch]

The meter on my B7200 says about the same - but its rolled over at least twice....

Dan

Yes, and mine was 836 when I got it. Apparently it said the same at the previous oil change one year prior. It has considerably more now, but it's possible that's because I fixed the power wire. ;-)

 

[TerryKing]

The bucket creeps down towards dump slowly. The lift creeps down much more slowly.

Hi Guys,
IsThere a PLUG you can get for hydraulic lines?

I'm thinking block the bucket with a floor jack at 2 feet or so.. Then open and plug those two lines at the control valve. Should eliminate valve leakage??

WhatChaThink??

Regards, Terry

 

[TheOldHokie]

Hi Guys,
IsThere a PLUG you can get for hydraulic lines?

I'm thinking block the bucket with a floor jack at 2 feet or so.. Then open and plug those two lines at the control valve. Should eliminate valve leakage??

WhatChaThink??

Regards, Terry

Yes you can get plugs and caps and that test works fine.

When you say to raise. "bucket" and plug hoses are we talking the bucket hoses or the boom hoses?

If you are talking about the boom hoses you already know the cylinders cannot leak down.

Dan

 

[TerryKing]

Yes you can get plugs and caps and that test works fine.

When you say to raise. "bucket" and plug hoses are we talking the bucket hoses or the boom hoses?
If you are talking about the boom hoses you already know the cylinders cannot leak down.

My Terminology ED still back in class... But it's a LOT easier than Chinese or Arabic when I lived in those countries. Need to learn that stuff when you're young..

My boom/lift cylinders do leak down, but much more slowly than the bucket position.. I'd like to test them both...

(Can't find "plug" or "cap" on SurplusCenter. Where should I look??) Need to block female JIC-6 swivel end of hose to valve.

Thanks! T

 

[TheOldHokie]

My Terminology ED still back in class... But it's a LOT easier than Chinese or Arabic when I lived in those countries. Need to learn that stuff when you're young..

My boom/lift cylinders do leak down, but much more slowly than the bucket position.. I'd like to test them both...

(Can't find "plug" or "cap" on SurplusCenter. Where should I look??) Need to block female JIC-6 swivel end of hose to valve.

Thanks! T

Your boom ctlinders CANNOT leak down internally.

The bucket cylinders can droop (dunp) due to internal leakage.

If the bucket hoses have male NPT ends:

5406C | Pipe Cap

Shop online for your steel 5406C fittings. Large Inventory, Fast Shipping and Great Prices at Discount Hydraulic Hose.

www.discounthydraulichose.com

If the hoses have female NPT ends use a cap and a male nipple.

For this test you can use ordinary pipe fittings from a hardware store.

If the hoses have JIC female swivels use a plug or a male union and cap.

2408 | 37° JIC Male Tube Plug | Hydraulics Direct

JIC AN Fittings are made from robust carbon steel and feature a zinc-trivalent coating for wear and corrosion resistance These fittings are designed for high-pressure resistance and are suitable for a variety of industrial applications They employ a 37° flare connection that complies with the

www.hydraulicsdirect.com

2403 | 37° JIC SAE Flare Male Tube Union | Hydraulics Direct

JIC AN Fittings are made from robust carbon steel and feature a zinc-trivalent coating for wear and corrosion resistance These fittings are designed for high-pressure resistance and are suitable for a variety of industrial applications They employ a 37° flare connection that complies with the

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304C-06 | 3/8" JIC Solid Cap

Check out the deal on 304C-06 | 3/8" JIC Solid Cap at DiscountHydraulicHose.com

www.discounthydraulichose.com

 

[TheOldHokie]

My Terminology ED still back in class... But it's a LOT easier than Chinese or Arabic when I lived in those countries. Need to learn that stuff when you're young..

My boom/lift cylinders do leak down, but much more slowly than the bucket position.. I'd like to test them both...

(Can't find "plug" or "cap" on SurplusCenter. Where should I look??) Need to block female JIC-6 swivel end of hose to valve.

Thanks! T

Caps and plugs at Surplus Center

Plugs & Caps | Hydraulic Adapters & Fittings | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com

Plugs , Caps,NPT Plugs,NPT Caps,NPT Hollow Head Plugs,JIC Caps,JIC PLugs,SAE Plugs,Other,Magnetic Drain Plugs,SAE Hollow Head Plugs

www.surpluscenter.com

 

[TerryKing]

Caps and plugs at Surplus Center

Plugs & Caps | Hydraulic Adapters & Fittings | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com

Plugs , Caps,NPT Plugs,NPT Caps,NPT Hollow Head Plugs,JIC Caps,JIC PLugs,SAE Plugs,Other,Magnetic Drain Plugs,SAE Hollow Head Plugs

www.surpluscenter.com

Dan! Yet again THANKS for helping figure stuff out.

Surplus Center search finds NPT Caps and JIC Plugs. I wasnt specific enough. Sorry...

You said :
Your boom ctlinders CANNOT leak down internally.

The bucket cylinders can droop (dunp) due to internal leakage.
----------

I BELIEVE that. But I don't understand Why they are different. I'll have the lines blocked soon and probably indict the valve..

Thanks for the "Continuing Eduation" ...

 

[TheOldHokie]

Dan! Yet again THANKS for helping figure stuff out.

Surplus Center search finds NPT Caps and JIC Plugs. I wasnt specific enough. Sorry...

You said :
Your boom ctlinders CANNOT leak down internally.

The bucket cylinders can droop (dunp) due to internal leakage.
----------

I BELIEVE that. But I don't understand Why they are different. I'll have the lines blocked soon and probably indict the valve..

Thanks for the "Continuing Eduation" ...

When the boom leaks down the cylinders retract. When a cylinder rod retracts the space (volume) for oil inside.the cylinder decreases. Since the cylinder is completely filled with oil the cylinder is hydraulically locked in the extended position. The only way the rod can retract is if some of that oil leaks OUTSIDE the cylinder.

Dan

 

[TerryKing]

OK, I'm understanding more. SS shipped me plugs and I will test to confirm the (Very Likely) problem is the control valve leaking.

Today I moved 6 logs from a big maple that came down: about 24" by 48" pieces moved to buck up and split. I used a chain on the hook on top of the bucket and then picked them up into the bucket, one by one. Put 3 on a trailer and ferried 3 down the road to the yard and woodsplitter near the woodpile. The creep down was much more pronounced with the load. Had to keep blipping it back up.

So I'm looking at valves. The Summit valve looks good. HERE . My valve has two pressure hoses from the tractor side block, and one return line. Looks like:

Might I reuse fittings from the OLD valve on the new one?? Hmmmm..

Thanks for all the help!!