My Turn :(

Yotekiller

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I have had Covid 3 times, the worst episode happened after receiving the covid vaccine. I was forced to get it, didn't want it but didn't wanna lose my job, either. I have seen some bad things come from the vaccine. My elderly father who was very active and in great health, got his vaccine and died two weeks later even though he just had a full checkup the day he got his vaccine and the doc said he was in great health.

My dean and I had a conversation just last week about Covid and the vaccines. I asked her what her thoughts were on the vaccine and if she had seen first hand any issues resulting from it (she is a practicing full time ER doctor and the dean of one of the top medical schools in the country. She told me that she has seen lots of heart damage caused by the vaccines and the boosters. But she also said that the virus itself causes 50 times more damage than the vaccine itself does. Ether way, I a done with these vaccines. They pumped everything under the sun in me during my military time.
 

chim

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I had a regular scheduled checkup in late January 2020. I requested a COVID antibodies check then. The result was positive. My Doctor tried hard to convince me to get the shot later in the year. He told me I would likely die if I got COVID again. I called bullsh*t on that.
In 2021, I had an uncle die; the cause of death was listed as COVID. The family claims he died suddenly from heart attack symptoms. He died about 2 weeks after the second shot.
I worked with a guy for 40-ish years and his son also worked for our company. He had cancer. His son came to work and told us his dad was getting worse almost daily and had gotten to the point that all dad could do is sit in a chair and spit blood. In the end, he was taken to the hospital for a couple days before he passed. Tests were done, and the Covid came back positive. His wife and the son had to argue so as to NOT have Covid listed as the cause of death.

There were stories about whether hospitals received extra money for having Covid patients. One quote from an AP story:


BY PHILIP MARCELO
Published 5:43 PM EST, March 9, 2023


"Colin Milligan, a spokesperson for the American Hospital Association, confirmed that hospitals are currently eligible to receive a 20% increase in Medicare payments for caring for COVID-19 patients."
 

Henro

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MY guess is that there was some financial advantage if hospitals listed covid as the cause of death during the height of the pandemic.

BUT also, I believe the statics show that there was an increase of deaths, at least in the elderly, during the pandemic, as compared to previously.

I remember years ago I guy I worked with refused to get a flu shot. He said the first time he got one he got sicker than a dog, and blamed it on the flu shot. Maybe right, maybe wrong? I don't know.

We decided to get all covid vaccinations without any issues. And never got sick enough to think about taking a test.

It is really difficult to determine what is going on. Easy to come to a conclusion, that may or may not be based in fact.

Just where I am at...in my simple mind...
 

jimh406

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Yes, information was and is suppressed. If you want more details, go to Twitter/X (which has community notes). Basically, if you post BS, other people can call you on it.
 

chim

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"Following the science" has told us that masks were effective - then not effective. Vaccines prevented you from getting Covid - then maybe they lessened the effects when you did get it. All kinds of varying info out there.

When looking for some background info this AM, Paxlovid was hailed as a "gamechanger", and now it's irrelevant.

No doubt the real information will change as more is learned. It bugs me to no end that information is pushed out as true and final when it is not. It often appears to be done for the purpose of serving some agenda.
 
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chim

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Yes, information was and is suppressed. If you want more details, go to Twitter/X (which has community notes). Basically, if you post BS, other people can call you on it.
Yup. When big pharma can withhold information for 70 years, what is one to believe. I'm sure that even though there will be little use for that info 70 years down the road, it will be released. You know, like the JFK and UFO files:)
 

GeoHorn

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Oh Yeah…. I get all the best medical information and advice on a Tractor Forum.
 
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NCL4701

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Oh Yeah…. I get all the best medical information and advice on a Tractor Forum.
Makes sense. I get some decent tractor advice here, but I get my best tractor advice from my doctor.
 
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chim

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Oh Yeah…. I get all the best medical information and advice on a Tractor Forum.
:) Absolutely!

It's not just another medical advice source either It's a one stop shop for all sorts of reliable information. FAA regs, self defense laws, DOT rules, structural calcs, electrical issues, lemon laws, lubricants, radiation mitigation, rocket repair, tools, just to name a few.
 
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wp6529

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"Following the science" has told us that masks were effective - then not effective. Vaccines prevented you from getting Covid - then maybe they lessened the effects when you did get it. All kinds of varying info out there.

When looking for some background info this AM, Paxlovid was hailed as a "gamechanger", and now it's irrelevant.

No doubt the real information will change as more is learned. It bugs me to no end that information is pushed out as true and final when it is not. It often appears to be done for the purpose of serving some agenda.
When the pandemic first started we had near zero information about the virus. Recommendations were made based on the available information and best knowledge of related viruses.

Over time more was learned about covid-19 and as is only reasonable, the recommendations changed based on this new information. Then we started seeing new variants and learning about them and once again this new information refined when we knew and the recommendations.

Over time we began to get information on what treatments appears to be effective and changes to recommendations were once again made. This is how science works, you make the best judgements based on the available information and when new information becomes available you assess it and adjust your judgements.

For those of us who followed the weekly science updates published by the CDC and others this learning process was 100% clear and 100% transparent. It does require a certain level of education to understand the terminology in the science updates but you do not need to be a PhD to understand them.

For those who say something to the effect of "the vaccine side effects were far worse than the covid when I got it", please stop and understand that if you had not got the vaccine that "mild" covid may well have been severe and put you in the hospital or morgue. In my circle of friends and family ranging from 4yo to 87yo, those who got vax'd either didn't get covid or if they did it was very mild. Almost all who did not get vax'd got covid and ranged from mild to in the hospital near death and there were several at that extreme end one who the docs were not sure would survive.

For those on the "masks don't work" bandwagon, first you have to understand that the early variant was not as infections as the strains circulating now four years later and second we had *NO* known treatments at the beginning.

There are a number of solid studies that show that the volume of virus exposure is linked to the severity of the illness, i.e. if you get a small dose your immune system has more time to learn and start fighting the virus before it is overwhelmed than if you receive a high exposure. There are still more studies that showed that a mask on the source i.e. infected person reduced the expelled virus counts 10%+. Masks on the destination i.e. the non infected person reduced the exposure level another 10%+. So yes, masks did reduce exposure 20% if people used them properly and that reduced exposure could result in reduced severity if you were infected.

The current variants are more infectious and possibly less lethal, so masks are less important today, particularly since we have learned a lot about treatments and have a number of good options we did not have in the beginning. More infectious and less lethal over time are to be expected in virus evolution since it is not in the virus' interest to kill those it infects as they can no longer help to spread the virus.

Probably the most important thing covid has shown is not our lack of preparedness for a pandemic, rather is it the lack of education among the public to understand the science and to not be misled by deliberate misinformation campaigns.
 
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Daren Todd

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MY guess is that there was some financial advantage if hospitals listed covid as the cause of death during the height of the pandemic.

BUT also, I believe the statics show that there was an increase of deaths, at least in the elderly, during the pandemic, as compared to previously.

I remember years ago I guy I worked with refused to get a flu shot. He said the first time he got one he got sicker than a dog, and blamed it on the flu shot. Maybe right, maybe wrong? I don't know.

We decided to get all covid vaccinations without any issues. And never got sick enough to think about taking a test.

It is really difficult to determine what is going on. Easy to come to a conclusion, that may or may not be based in fact.

Just where I am at...in my simple mind...
Quite a few of the elderly deaths around here were unattended deaths during self isolation.

First responders figured that most just gave up.

My elderly neighbor broke down in tears when I asked her how she was doing when she was out walking her pooch.

She started crying her eyes out. She said she's about to say to he'll with all this social distancing. She would give anything for a hug.

My wife came home to find me standing in the middle of the street holding our neighbor while she cried on my shoulder.
 

jimh406

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Makes sense. I get some decent tractor advice here, but I get my best tractor advice from my doctor.
That's actually very possible. Some doctors are pretty smart and some mechanics don't know much about tractors even though they get paid to do the work.

You only have to read here to realize not all tractors even have fluid in the front axles. That seems like a basic deal, but apparently not.

The reality is there are some of every profession that aren't very good at their job.
 

jimh406

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Quite a few of the elderly deaths around here were unattended deaths during self isolation.
Yet, some think that was perfectly justified. The medical profession, most govts, and "science" failed miserably.
 

jimh406

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Probably the most important thing covid has shown is not our lack of preparedness for a pandemic, rather is it the lack of education among the public to understand the science and to not be misled by deliberate misinformation campaigns.
It's easy to convince people that misinformation was the science when that's the only information that was allowed. That's over now with Twitter, but there seems to be a lot here that still think they know the science. ;)

It will be a while before some people catch up if they ever do.
 
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fried1765

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That's actually very possible. Some doctors are pretty smart and some mechanics don't know much about tractors even though they get paid to do the work.

You only have to read here to realize not all tractors even have fluid in the front axles. That seems like a basic deal, but apparently not.

The reality is there are some of every profession that aren't very good at their job.
The reality here, is that 50% of all doctors graduated in the bottom half of their medical school class.;)

I do not agree, however, that this hypothesis is correct for USN aircraft carrier pilots!
If they "aren't very good"...they ARE very dead!
 
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D2Cat

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When the pandemic first started we had near zero information about the virus. Recommendations were made based on the available information and best knowledge of related viruses.

Over time more was learned about covid-19 and as is only reasonable, the recommendations changed based on this new information. Then we started seeing new variants and learning about them and once again this new information refined when we knew and the recommendations.

Over time we began to get information on what treatments appears to be effective and changes to recommendations were once again made. This is how science works, you make the best judgements based on the available information and when new information becomes available you assess it and adjust your judgements.

For those of us who followed the weekly science updates published by the CDC and others this learning process was 100% clear and 100% transparent. It does require a certain level of education to understand the terminology in the science updates but you do not need to be a PhD to understand them.

For those who say something to the effect of "the vaccine side effects were far worse than the covid when I got it", please stop and understand that if you had not got the vaccine that "mild" covid may well have been severe and put you in the hospital or morgue. In my circle of friends and family ranging from 4yo to 87yo, those who got vax'd either didn't get covid or if they did it was very mild. Almost all who did not get vax'd got covid and ranged from mild to in the hospital near death and there were several at that extreme end one who the docs were not sure would survive.

For those on the "masks don't work" bandwagon, first you have to understand that the early variant was not as infections as the strains circulating now four years later and second we had *NO* known treatments at the beginning.

There are a number of solid studies that show that the volume of virus exposure is linked to the severity of the illness, i.e. if you get a small dose your immune system has more time to learn and start fighting the virus before it is overwhelmed than if you receive a high exposure. There are still more studies that showed that a mask on the source i.e. infected person reduced the expelled virus counts 10%+. Masks on the destination i.e. the non infected person reduced the exposure level another 10%+. So yes, masks did reduce exposure 20% if people used them properly and that reduced exposure could result in reduced severity if you were infected.

The current variants are more infectious and possibly less lethal, so masks are less important today, particularly since we have learned a lot about treatments and have a number of good options we did not have in the beginning. More infectious and less lethal over time are to be expected in virus evolution since it is not in the virus' interest to kill those it infects as they can no longer help to spread the virus.

Probably the most important thing covid has shown is not our lack of preparedness for a pandemic, rather is it the lack of education among the public to understand the science and to not be misled by deliberate misinformation campaigns.
That whole idea of the public trained to believe the main stream media for years and they THEY decide what the public should/will hear. Producing false information and making it out to be the truth and later caught in the dishonesty.

Now our society is becoming more aware of the deliberate misinformation campaigns you mention and how MSM tries to cover their mess with "science"!
 
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sheepfarmer

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That whole idea of the public trained to believe the main stream media for years and they THEY decide what the public should/will hear. Producing false information and making it out to be the truth and later caught in the dishonesty.

Now our society is becoming more aware of the deliberate misinformation campaigns you mention and how MSM tries to cover their mess with "science"!
[/QUOTE

When the pandemic first started we had near zero information about the virus. Recommendations were made based on the available information and best knowledge of related viruses.

Over time more was learned about covid-19 and as is only reasonable, the recommendations changed based on this new information. Then we started seeing new variants and learning about them and once again this new information refined when we knew and the recommendations.

Over time we began to get information on what treatments appears to be effective and changes to recommendations were once again made. This is how science works, you make the best judgements based on the available information and when new information becomes available you assess it and adjust your judgements.

For those of us who followed the weekly science updates published by the CDC and others this learning process was 100% clear and 100% transparent. It does require a certain level of education to understand the terminology in the science updates but you do not need to be a PhD to understand them.

For those who say something to the effect of "the vaccine side effects were far worse than the covid when I got it", please stop and understand that if you had not got the vaccine that "mild" covid may well have been severe and put you in the hospital or morgue. In my circle of friends and family ranging from 4yo to 87yo, those who got vax'd either didn't get covid or if they did it was very mild. Almost all who did not get vax'd got covid and ranged from mild to in the hospital near death and there were several at that extreme end one who the docs were not sure would survive.

For those on the "masks don't work" bandwagon, first you have to understand that the early variant was not as infections as the strains circulating now four years later and second we had *NO* known treatments at the beginning.

There are a number of solid studies that show that the volume of virus exposure is linked to the severity of the illness, i.e. if you get a small dose your immune system has more time to learn and start fighting the virus before it is overwhelmed than if you receive a high exposure. There are still more studies that showed that a mask on the source i.e. infected person reduced the expelled virus counts 10%+. Masks on the destination i.e. the non infected person reduced the exposure level another 10%+. So yes, masks did reduce exposure 20% if people used them properly and that reduced exposure could result in reduced severity if you were infected.

The current variants are more infectious and possibly less lethal, so masks are less important today, particularly since we have learned a lot about treatments and have a number of good options we did not have in the beginning. More infectious and less lethal over time are to be expected in virus evolution since it is not in the virus' interest to kill those it infects as they can no longer help to spread the virus.

Probably the most important thing covid has shown is not our lack of preparedness for a pandemic, rather is it the lack of education among the public to understand the science and to not be misled by deliberate misinformation campaigns.
One addition to your comments about masks is that quality matters. Would you conclude if you put the cheapest, poorest fitting hydraulic oil filter on your tractor and then had troubles with the HST that oil filters were unnecessary? And take off the filter and run the tractor without any filter? Early in the pandemic good masks were in short supply, so homemade ones were suggested to at least prevent people from coughing all over their neighbors. Those of us that could, scrounged better ones, paint fume filters, industrial filters to provide some personal protection. Good N95 masks are now readily available, but the good fitting ones are not very comfortable.

Second I don't know about deliberate misinformation, but in today's world what I would call assembly line medicine is being practiced. If you don't have the educational resources to question and decide what is best for you, and advocate for it, you are a sitting duck for problems. You go to a specialist, they tick off a couple boxes on their computer, tell you to go to the main desk where they will order the specified test, (scheduled according not by how medically urgent it might be, but rather by how long it will take to get your insurance to grant approval). You also have to be on top of the fact that the next step in their standardized protocol involves a drug you are allergic to. You might find that they plan to use it from the nurse or scheduler. Just because it is in your chart doesn't mean the doc will read it. Etc. I often go home after one of these visits and think for a while, and say that the cons outlay the pros and cancel the procedure, do some reading, and go get a second opinion. The point is you can't blindly sign up for treatments without a lot of thought. In the end it is a leap of faith. If you are in the ER half conscious, prayer is always good.
 
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jimh406

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If you want your mind blown, do some research on people recovering from incurable cancer with a diet change only. No chemo, no radiation, etc.
 

NCL4701

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“in today's world what I would call assembly line medicine is being practiced. If you don't have the educational resources to question and decide what is best for you, and advocate for it, you are a sitting duck for problems. You go to a specialist, they tick off a couple boxes on their computer, tell you to go to the main desk where they will order the specified test, (scheduled according not by how medically urgent it might be, but rather by how long it will take to get your insurance to grant approval). You also have to be on top of the fact that the next step in their standardized protocol involves a drug you are allergic to. You might find that they plan to use it from the nurse or scheduler. Just because it is in your chart doesn't mean the doc will read it. Etc. I often go home after one of these visits and think for a while, and say that the cons outlay the pros and cancel the procedure, do some reading, and go get a second opinion. The point is you can't blindly sign up for treatments without a lot of thought. In the end it is a leap of faith.”

This has been the exact experience my wife has had for 9 years, my father for his last 5 years while I was involved in his care, and my mother for many, many years before she passed. If you go in with an ‘in the box’ issue (such as a bone sticking out) they’re pretty good at fixing it. There’s a ‘best practices’ protocol for everything and it must be followed to the letter. So long as nothing in your diagnosis or recovery slips outside the box, you’re good. Front line doctors don’t think. They are putting bolt A in slot B.

And they’re running off a playbook written by Medicare, Medicaid, and health insurance companies. At one point we had a doctor that wanted to run some tests and said he’d let us know if insurance approved but he was concerned they might not. Asked him if they would be helpful and why. He said yes and made a good case for them. Told him to hell with insurance, order them. He said but they’re expensive. After about 5 minutes of badgering for a number, he finally sad they’d be about $10,000 all in. Told him I’d write him a check up front and showed him one of our accounts on my phone so he’d know I wasn’t blowing smoke. He STILL wouldn’t move forward without kissing the ring of the insurance company and getting their blessing.

I’m aware it’s anecdotal but my direct experience with the medical system in the U.S. is that it’s a money churning juggernaut that has some health benefits as an acceptable, but not required, collateral effect of its sole goal of making money. I do have my annual physical, etc. and see a doctor when I need one, but I have no illusions about them, or my insurer, caring for my health.

If anyone reading this is a medical professional and you’re in it for ANYTHING other than money, I applaud you. However I clearly have never run across you in your role as a medical professional.

Edit: BTW, regardless the venue I’m convinced I can just say the word “COVID” in almost any group, then sit down and watch the fur fly. Like many, I have my own COVID nightmare stories. The most glaringly unethical was 100% money over medicine which was resolved in favor of medicine only under threat of litigation, and only then because the potential litigation threatened the core goal: money.
 
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