Finding the survey starting point question

[fried1765]

When the road frontage of the land is added up, there is quite a discrepency, by saying it can be worked out I guess you mean that the one favored by the surveyor will gain the most.

A reputable land surveyor will work to adjust/correct any discrepancies in the most equitable way possible.
Though some may choose to believe so, reputable land surveyors do not pick favorites!

 

[lynnmor]

A reputable land surveyor will work to adjust/correct any discrepancies in the most equitable way possible.
Though some may choose to believe so, reputable land surveyors do not choose favorites!

Maybe not, but the property line along one side of me actually is about a mile long with a stone fence on most of it. You can see the line from space. It has been that way for centuries since the Penn family owned it. My property was surveyed about 65 years ago and the stone fence was still the line. About 20 years ago, the neighbor had his surveyed and they didn’t follow the original deeds or the stone fence, and chose a crooked line that comes way in on me, if that isn’t favoritism what is?

 

[DustyRusty]

Challenge his deed, you have the history on your side.

 

[fried1765]

Maybe not, but the property line along one side of me actually is about a mile long with a stone fence on most of it. You can see the line from space. It has been that way for centuries since the Penn family owned it. My property was surveyed about 65 years ago and the stone fence was still the line. About 20 years ago, the neighbor had his surveyed and they didn’t follow the original deeds or the stone fence, and chose a crooked line that comes way in on me, if that isn’t favoritism what is?

File suit against the land owner, and the surveyor.
Depending on the amount of land, and the value of land in your area, it may or may not be worth the cost of a lawsuit.
In NYC it would definitely be worth it.'
In Oklahoma......not so much.

 

[DustyRusty]

When I bought my farm, previous owner was selling 247 acres. The surveyor could only find 242 acres. He never left his office, did everything with satellite views & computer programs. This is a corrections section (not 1 mile square). The 3 deeds are expressed in directions & rods.

i also have a 7 acre bump in my N property line where a creek has an oxbow. Some years ago (before 1960), previous property owners couldn’t keep a fence up around the creek & moved the property lines around the creek. The creek continues to undercut the bank causing the fence to be moved back every 5 or so years. My farm is getting larger, very slowly.

A local 50+ acre lot was sold nearby, and the buyer had a surveyor survey the property by looking at the satellite views and computer programs. He made a mistake and then told the buyer that it wasn't 50+ acres but more like 150 acres. The new owner then calls in a logging company and they cut all of the old growth out of the 150 acres and give the new owner a very large check. The owner of the adjacent 100 acres hears about his land being logged and drives up to see what is going on, only to learn that they removed all of his timber. The new owner says that it isn't his mistake, but the surveyors. The owner of the land that was improperly logged has filed suit against the logger, surveyor, and the new owner. It is now going on for 4 years and still no money and the litigation goes on. The surveyor has since passed away and the logger can't be found, and the fellow that got the money built a home on the property, and it is now up for sale. If I were to have the land surveyed, I would want boots on the ground with instruments.

 

[Henro]

Interesting discussion.

My question was driven by my basically analytical nature I think.

I am trying to understand how one finds the location of a missing pin, that is the start point for defining a piece of property on a deed. I mean, if the pin were removed by someone, for whatever reason, how would the location for a replacement pin be determined?

Without having that pin to take measurements from, to locate other pins that define the property, I am not sure how more than a general idea could be developed.

Maybe I need to join a surveyor's forum and ask...

 

[TX Chris]

Interesting discussion.

My question was driven by my basically analytical nature I think.

I am trying to understand how one finds the location of a missing pin, that is the start point for defining a piece of property on a deed. I mean, if the pin were removed by someone, for whatever reason, how would the location for a replacement pin be determined?

Without having that pin to take measurements from, to locate other pins that define the property, I am not sure how more than a general idea could be developed.

Maybe I need to join a surveyor's forum and ask...

Each property corner should be physically marked with an iron rod or other accepted marking method. If one is missing, they locate the others and work back to the missing one and reset it.

"Starting point" doesn't mean it's the only official point, it simply means that's the point the surveyor chose to begin writing the legal metes and bounds description of the property.

 

[Henro]

Each property corner should be physically marked with an iron rod or other accepted marking method. If one is missing, they locate the others and work back to the missing one. "Starting point" doesn't mean it's the only official point, it simply means that's the point they chose to begin writing the legal metes and bounds description of the property.

That is interesting and certainly a practical solution to my question. Makes sense. Even if all the pins on a property were missing, and the pins on the neighboring properties were missing too, there would still be a starting point somewhere, like at the official monuments that are positioned in the area.

AND since surveyors have local GPS systems that can be set up on existing official monuments, it is likely that calculations could be made from info on deeds in the area that would not require any physical measurements to be made. Maybe a bit of office time thought.

I think I see the answer now!

 

[Lil Foot]

On my property in the high country, I knew where all 8 of the corner pins were- a rebar stake with a rock cairn around it.
I say knew, because the county culvert at the corner of the property plugged up, causing a huge monsoon rain runoff to backup & flood the area across the road from my driveway. When the water got high enough to reach the crown of the road, the road washed out to a depth of 5+ft, and 3-8ft wide, right at the point were my center pin was. (red star)
Afterward, there was a delta of approximately 2-4ft of roadbed material over the top if the pin, maybe 30ft wide & 50ft long.
I measured from the 3 adjacent pins, to where the pin should have been, and started digging. At about 30 inches, I got a signal from my metal detector, and found the pin about 6 inches further down, right where I had measured it to be. I slipped a short pipe over it, and inserted another piece of rebar, and filled it in.
When the property was surveyed, the surveyor said my pin was less than an inch off.

 

[PoTreeBoy]

That is interesting and certainly a practical solution to my question. Makes sense. Even if all the pins on a property were missing, and the pins on the neighboring properties were missing too, there would still be a starting point somewhere, like at the official monuments that are positioned in the area.

AND since surveyors have local GPS systems that can be set up on existing official monuments, it is likely that calculations could be made from info on deeds in the area that would not require any physical measurements to be made. Maybe a bit of office time thought.

I think I see the answer now!

Surveying can be very complicated.
* trying to fit a square grid on an imperfect spherical surface
* trying to keep up with a variable, moving north direction
* trying to reconcile old surveys and accepted property boundaries with new technology
* what happens in places like Hawaii and California when the land moves due to natural causes?

 

[Biker1mike]

My little brother watched as a surveyor was about to drive an iron rod about an inch from his driveway. He told the guy to be really sure or that is going to be the most expensive rod he ever drove.
End of story. Brother spent a lot of money, his lawyer made a lot of money, surveyor lost some money but all of his reputation with local real estate folks and new neighbor has been nervous every since. When paying hundreds of thousands per acre every yard counts.

 

[fried1765]

A local 50+ acre lot was sold nearby, and the buyer had a surveyor survey the property by looking at the satellite views and computer programs. He made a mistake and then told the buyer that it wasn't 50+ acres but more like 150 acres. The new owner then calls in a logging company and they cut all of the old growth out of the 150 acres and give the new owner a very large check. The owner of the adjacent 100 acres hears about his land being logged and drives up to see what is going on, only to learn that they removed all of his timber. The new owner says that it isn't his mistake, but the surveyors. The owner of the land that was improperly logged has filed suit against the logger, surveyor, and the new owner. It is now going on for 4 years and still no money and the litigation goes on. The surveyor has since passed away and the logger can't be found, and the fellow that got the money built a home on the property, and it is now up for sale. If I were to have the land surveyed, I would want boots on the ground with instruments.

ABSOLUTELY YES !!!!

 

[jyoutz]

I had some survey training as part of my forestry school studies. But being in the west I’ve seldom had to deal with metes and bounds surveys. We have general land surveys and the section corners are marked with brass caps. But we do have metes and bounds surveys for mining claims, and these properties are difficult to flag boundaries.

 

[Henro]

My little brother watched as a surveyor was about to drive an iron rod about an inch from his driveway. He told the guy to be really sure or that is going to be the most expensive rod he ever drove.
End of story. Brother spent a lot of money, his lawyer made a lot of money, surveyor lost some money but all of his reputation with local real estate folks and new neighbor has been nervous every since. When paying hundreds of thousands per acre every yard counts.

So the pin was moved, the brother was happy but poorer, the surveyor is a bit poorer and lost his reputation locally, and the neighbor is nervous because he has no faith in the other pins defining his property?

Did I get it right?

(Edited because I deleted an original post I was making, and did not realize it was posted, if it was. The original post I started I felt I did not have my thoughts together...so tried to give up till later...)

 

[GeoHorn]

There’s a reason many wealthy family-lines trace their origins to an early surveyor. In early American History, Surveyors were in a position to become wealthy by virtue of their unique license to mark boundaries the general public would accept without much argument.

 

[GeoHorn]

File suit against the land owner, and the surveyor.
Depending on the amount of land, and the value of land in your area, it may or may not be worth the cost of a lawsuit.
In NYC it would definitely be worth it.'
In Oklahoma......not so much.

….unless oil is involved.

There is a “story” that Texas claimed it’s northern border to be the “bank of the Red River”…. and Oklahoma has benefitted greatly by that definition as oil was extracted beneath the river as well as the last century of river-movement.

 

[Whiskey Mike]

Magnetic north moves over time.

 

[Biker1mike]

So the pin was moved, the brother was happy but poorer, the surveyor is a bit poorer and lost his reputation locally, and the neighbor is nervous because he has no faith in the other pins defining his property?

Did I get it right?

(Edited because I deleted an original post I was making, and did not realize it was posted, if it was. The original post I started I felt I did not have my thoughts together...so tried to give up till later...)

Nope, you got it wrong. Not THE PIN but an iron rod the surveyor was using as a property line marker. He was off for some reason. In that neighborhood a foot or two along the entire line could be thousands of dollars. He had to come back and move his iron to the correct location after several other companies went out and repeated the survey.
In a small town with a lot of rich people, the realtors hate to look bad and will more or less gang up and black ball any company in a related field that cost one of them money, time, or reputation.
This was decades ago but I would imagine the survey company had to work hard to get the trust of the local realtors.
You have to imagine a town that measures land by feet and inches and not acres.

 

[Henro]

Nope, you got it wrong. Not THE PIN but an iron rod the surveyor was using as a property line marker. He was off for some reason. In that neighborhood a foot or two along the entire line could be thousands of dollars. He had to come back and move his iron to the correct location after several other companies went out and repeated the survey.
In a small town with a lot of rich people, the realtors hate to look bad and will more or less gang up and black ball any company in a related field that cost one of them money, time, or reputation.
This was decades ago but I would imagine the survey company had to work hard to get the trust of the local realtors.
You have to imagine a town that measures land by feet and inches and not acres.

LOL...iron rod, pin, whatever...all the same thing where I come from.

I was referring to the thing the surveyor put into the ground. Guess I got it right then...LOL

Bottom line is the "thing" the surveyor put in the ground was in the wrong spot. And if it were moved to the correct spot, it would have hit directly on top of the pin in the correct spot...

I guess I understand the situation.

 

[DustyRusty]

Surveyors are like magicians. They can find things that others can't.