2001 BX2200 won't turn over... relay (re-)wiring question

[martinlaurentide]

UPDATE from further testing: did not find a seat switch. Mower is on so the speed control switch can't be checked right now. Pulled ignition switch plug and although the green wire at the back of the connector came loose I am pretty sure I plugged it back in so that although I was hopeful, is not the issue. There is continuity from the engine side of that connector to both control wires at the starter so I am really suspicious of the safety switches at this point. Ideas and input welcome.

Background
~10 years ago I installed the relay to avoid an intermittent "tractor won't start" issue and it worked until now; had starter rebuilt once and re-checked last week a bit dirty but not bad, (cleaned contacts), along with new battery which was weak. Cold winters here so I don't mind doing this from a maintenance perspective. Checking around for those ~5 safety switches that come loose or need cleaning or replacement, springs that fall off, etc. but I really don't think they are the culprit here, have more to do this weekend i.e. to find all of those but after I check this aspect of the system. Found only one and sprayed it with contact cleaner but it looked fine (near left rear wheel) and the hydraulic output connectors. I installed a new relay instead of testing the current one to save time, need to check voltages and frankly I suck at or don't like messing with electricity and wires like this although I am more comfortable with 12 volt than the big stuff lol. Suffice to say:

Question
Since I pulled / reinstalled the starter and reconnected up my relay and fuses (checked both), I am unsure if I re-installed all the wires correctly. Was wondering if an expert or someone who has done this could take a quick look and check my connections before I spend more time on this per the above... I found my notes and some information on this but am still not sure if I didn't mix up a couple of them. Tractor is in the garage (of course)... Thanks you for anything you can help me with.

Legend
30 blue
85 red
86 white ground
87 yellow sw
87 in the middle green is unused - I forget which is A v. B ...

 

[GreensvilleJay]

OK ,I'll take a stab...

85 is the relay coil power
86 is the relay coil ground

actually 85 and 86 can be 'swapped',coil doesn't care

87 is relay switch contact (going to +12)
30 is relay switch contact (going to starter control relay)

87 and 30 can be 'swapped', it's just the switch contact

I would NOT trust the colors, as there is NO official 'carved in stone' standard for which colour goes to which relay pin on socket.

how it works....
when the coil gets 12volts across 85 and 86, the relay turns on and the internal switch between 30 and 87 is closed.

 

[Henro]

OK ,I'll take a stab...

85 is the relay coil power
86 is the relay coil ground

actually 85 and 86 can be 'swapped',coil doesn't care

87 is relay switch contact (going to +12)
30 is relay switch contact (going to starter control relay)

87 and 30 can be 'swapped', it's just the switch contact

I would NOT trust the colors, as there is NO official 'carved in stone' standard for which colour goes to which relay pin on socket.

how it works....
when the coil gets 12volts across 85 and 86, the relay turns on and the internal switch between 30 and 87 is closed.

Can’t argue with this assessment. I would only ask if the relay case or base shows a diagram of what terminals/pins are used for the coil and contacts. This is quite common.

If so, a picture of that would help if GVJ’s advice doesn’t get you where you want to go.

 

[Mark_BX25D]

With a home brew setup and no diagram or photos, it's pretty tough to give specific help. Good advice above. All I can add is a resource for learning all about how relays work:

www.the12volt.com

The best advice above is to put little faith in wire colors. Get a cheap meter and start doing some functional testing. Yes, red us usually 12v, and black is usually ground, but yellow? Orange? Blue? Green? It's a completely blind guessing game. If you get, "but I thought blue was supposed to be...." stuck in your head you will create headaches for yourself.

And don't let anybody convince you that you need an $85 meter for this. 20 bucks will get you all you need for basic automotive work.

And do yourself a big favor - get a small notebook and write things down as you work. You WILL get confused later and find yourself second-guessing and having to repeat measurements as you go, if you don't write it down.

Best to draw a diagram of the basic components (battery, switch, starter, relay(s)) and then start measuring and tracing wires and fill in the wiring part of the diagram one piece at a time.

 

[martinlaurentide]

OK ,I'll take a stab...

85 is the relay coil power
86 is the relay coil ground

actually 85 and 86 can be 'swapped',coil doesn't care

87 is relay switch contact (going to +12)
30 is relay switch contact (going to starter control relay)

87 and 30 can be 'swapped', it's just the switch contact

I would NOT trust the colors, as there is NO official 'carved in stone' standard for which colour goes to which relay pin on socket.

how it works....
when the coil gets 12volts across 85 and 86, the relay turns on and the internal switch between 30 and 87 is closed.

Hi Thanks. The colours were in the Legend to show what numbers they were connected to. What I was hoping was that I could get some input as to where each colour should be connected in the picture.

I think I got at least some of them right but possibly some of them wrong.

 

[martinlaurentide]

With a home brew setup and no diagram or photos, it's pretty tough to give specific help. Good advice above. All I can add is a resource for learning all about how relays work:

www.the12volt.com

The best advice above is to put little faith in wire colors. Get a cheap meter and start doing some functional testing. Yes, red us usually 12v, and black is usually ground, but yellow? Orange? Blue? Green? It's a completely blind guessing game. If you get, "but I thought blue was supposed to be...." stuck in your head you will create headaches for yourself.

And don't let anybody convince you that you need an $85 meter for this. 20 bucks will get you all you need for basic automotive work.

And do yourself a big favor - get a small notebook and write things down as you work. You WILL get confused later and find yourself second-guessing and having to repeat measurements as you go, if you don't write it down.

Best to draw a diagram of the basic components (battery, switch, starter, relay(s)) and then start measuring and tracing wires and fill in the wiring part of the diagram one piece at a time.

Thanks. As mentioned below. The colours are described only to show what numbers they are connected to. Those numbers go to specific parts in the pictures, i.e. ground, positive and the switch. I was hoping someone would spot a mistake or confirm that i got it right...

 

[Mark_BX25D]

Without knowing what the original intent was, we can't tell.

Sure is a mess, though. Neat work makes troubleshooting much easier. It's not just for looking good.

 

[Dustyx2]

I've done that mod to a BX22 and a ZD21. I can't tell what is what other than your ground and possibly the original starter solenoid wire. You've got a mess there and a meter would be the easiest way to sort it out.

 

[Henro]

Just to say what has been said above in a different way, maybe, in hopes it may help you.

The circuit you are concerned with is extremely simply and has two parts. The relay coil that causes movement of the relay mechanicals, and the contacts that are used to activate the starter solenoid.

To hook up the relay you need to know which terminals on the socket (or the relay pins if no socket is used) feed the operating coil, and which pins go to a normally open contact, which is closed when the coil is energized.

You will often find this information on the case of the relay or maybe on the base where the pins come out, or both.

Here is an example, although a different relay than yours and just used for reference, knowing it is not the same as what you have.

If your relay does not have this information printed on it, it can still be determined with ohmmeter measurements, but it gets more involved.

You want the coil to be energized by the wire that originally fed the starter solenoid via the safety circuit contacts. The other side of the relay coil is connected to the tractor frame somewhere, or to any wire that leads back to the battery negative terminal.

You want to use a normally open NO contact in between the 12 volt cable that comes to the starter and the starter solenoid terminal.

When the relay is energized, the NO contact of the relay closes, and applies 12 volts to the starter solenoid, directly from the heavy cable that comes to the starter from the battery.

That's all there is to it. BUT if you do not know what pins on the relay or socket are connected to what, then it becomes more of a puzzle, but not impossible to solve by any means.

Hope this explanation helps you or someone else in the future...

 

[#40Fan]

I bet if you switch 85 and 87, it will work just fine.

87 should have 12 volts (preferably fused) which it looks like it does coming off of the starter's battery post.

85 will be your key (crank) signal.

The way that you have it now, the relay should already be activated, putting the key signal straight to ground. You likely popped the fuse going to the ignition switch wiring it this way.

 

[martinlaurentide]

I bet if you switch 85 and 87, it will work just fine.

87 should have 12 volts (preferably fused) which it looks like it does coming off of the starter's battery post.

85 will be your key (crank) signal.

The way that you have it now, the relay should already be activated, putting the key signal straight to ground. You likely popped the fuse going to the ignition switch wiring it this way.

Thanks. Finally got back to this. Tried that i.e. switched them. I noticed the relay click when I reattached the battery. It didn't start though. Tested when turning key and there was no power to either control wires i.e. my relay setup's blue or yellow / 30 & 87 respectively. There is power to the main red battery connection on the solenoid. I found 2 of the safety switches behind the wheel for neutral, and the other side for PTO on / off, cleaned and depressed both a little further than they were depressed too and still no start. I believe there is a third I need to find to test, at which point, a switch will be suspect. That said, there is probably more and smarter testing that can be done by an experienced knowledgeable mechanic good at this... hence my post as to the other replies thank you to ALL. Yes Of Course it appears to be a mess. I am Working on it lol so I want all the wires out and handy before I clean it up and put it away ... ;-)... also for the record, turning the key has lights and fuel pump light coming on... it's all about getting power to the solenoid as far as I can tell.

If it really is hooked up correctly now, could it be the ignition switch? If so, if I unplug that connector behind the key, is that a safer way to effectively hot wire and bypass the switch or is it deeper than that. Again, the switch works to turn all but the power to the solenoid on... I really doubt it's the switch, likely a connection somewhere. I am certain a pro would walk up to it and have it running within minutes but I am far from that.

Again, my relay colours are:
30 blue
85 red
86 white ground
87 yellow sw
87 in the middle green is unused - I forget which is A v. B

 

[Mark_BX25D]

Might not be a bad idea to put it back to factory just to make sure all of the elements in the original circuit are working correctly, then re-figure out how to add in the relay. Make notes & drawings as you go.

You could tear out a lot of hair trying to figure out your relay, when all the time it was some safety switch or some other thing in the original circuit.

 

[martinlaurentide]

Might not be a bad idea to put it back to factory just to make sure all of the elements in the original circuit are working correctly, then re-figure out how to add in the relay. Make notes & drawings as you go.

You could tear out a lot of hair trying to figure out your relay, when all the time it was some safety switch or some other thing in the original circuit.

Thanks. Yeah. I was considering that at this point. That said, for notes. The picture is pretty much the 1,000 words needed to describe how it should go, UNLESS I already put it back wrong and that is the problem but I doubt it. Also, it Needed that relay to start right off the bat. when I bought it (used) the seller (a kubota dealer) did not know why it intermittently started. Subsequent to the relay installation, it started every single time... hence my reticence to do that... that said, I pulled both control switches off the relay and reconnected to each other to bypass the relay and that didn't make a difference. Did more testing, will update at the top... Thx.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

OK, I downloaded the WSM from Kubotabooks ! Covers both bx1800 and the bx2200.
Go to the 'electrical' section and print off the two clear pages of 'wiring', tape them together to get the whole thing on one page. The previous page has the colour code for wires,so yeah, should print that as well. NOW, you'll be able to figure out what the original wires should be connected to and what they're supposed to do.
Spending 10 minutes to get the diagrams will save you DAYZE of frustration !!

 

[martinlaurentide]

OK, I downloaded the WSM from Kubotabooks ! Covers both bx1800 and the bx2200.
Go to the 'electrical' section and print off the two clear pages of 'wiring', tape them together to get the whole thing on one page. The previous page has the colour code for wires,so yeah, should print that as well. NOW, you'll be able to figure out what the original wires should be connected to and what they're supposed to do.
Spending 10 minutes to get the diagrams will save you DAYZE of frustration !!

Thanks. I do have the diagrams probably the same ones. I am pretty sure since it is not getting power when turning the key, despite continuity from behind the switch to the 2 control wires, that it's either a safety switch and I need to retest them properly instead of just pushing them in and turning the key, or the switch itself.

 

[Russell King]

Someone should verify that this suggestion is correct before you attempt it since it is bypassing all safety and fuses.

From battery positive to the relay fire wire would prove that it is wired correctly and would spin the starter (and potentially harm or kill you)

 

[martinlaurentide]

Someone should verify that this suggestion is correct before you attempt it since it is bypassing all safety and fuses.

From battery positive to the relay fire wire would prove that it is wired correctly and would spin the starter (and potentially harm or kill you)

I don't know what suggestion you are referring to. If it's the relay, I and many have to have it installed and have had it installed for going on 10 years now. All the safety switches still function if that is what you are referring to. I am trying to diagnose why I am getting no power to the control wires.. I do think but will triple check again that I re-installed the wires as they were / should be however the problem appears to be power to the solenoid via the switch.

 

[Dustyx2]

I'll give it a try. Your blue wire should be connected to the Battery cable at the starter. Might be the black wire hanging free? Your yellow that I don't see other than at the relay should be going to the starter solenoid that is currently plugged into the blue wire. The white ground and the red trigger from the original start circuit appear correct.

 

[#40Fan]

The correct way.

But, 30 and 87 can be swapped as well as 85 and 86 and it will still work.

 

[martinlaurentide]

The correct way.

But, 30 and 87 can be swapped as well as 85 and 86 and it will still work.

I'll get up early and try in the morning. Thanks so much! Very much appreciated!