Give me Tips on Removing, Rebuilding L3710 Steering Cylinder

Mr Haney

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L3710
May 23, 2022
153
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FL
My L3710 has a bad fluid leak. I had trouble getting into the tractor, but someone told me the panels will come off without removing the loader, so I got in. I have learned that the leak is the rear seal on the steering cylinder.

The workshop manual says I have to remove the bumper and radiator to take the cylinder out. That would mean removing the 4-pin loader, which is harder than removing a 2-pin loader.

1. Does anyone here have part numbers for the seals and things I would have to replace to make this thing work again?

2. Is it really necessary to remove the bumper to get the cylinder out?
 

Mr Haney

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L3710
May 23, 2022
153
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FL
I don't know whether it's necessary to remove the bumper, but I managed to dig up the parts needed to rebuild the cylinder. This is the least-useful information I requested, since I would rather trust the cylinder rebuild to a mechanic. I am posting the info here anyway. This cylinder (HTA00-37800, replacing TA040-37803) is used on a number of different tractors, so this information is useful for all of them. These prices were online at Messick's.

Rebuild Parts Kubota L3710 Steering Cylinder:


Diagram MPN Type Needed Each Total

30 TA040-37570 piston gasket 1 16.80 16.80
40 04816-00450 O-ring 1 5.10 5.10
110 08511-02512 bush 2 6.14 12.28
120 04810-50500 O-ring 2 2.92 5.84
120 04817-50500 O-ring 2 4.42 8.84
130 TA040-37560 rod gasket 2 16.80 33.60
140 TA040-37580 seal 2 24.43 48.86
150 TA040-37880 cir-clip 2 17.15 34.30

Total cost: 165.62

EDIT: it looks like you don't have to buy new snap rings (circlips), so remove $34.30 from the cost, leaving a total of $131.32.
 
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Mr Haney

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L3710
May 23, 2022
153
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FL
Here is useful information to others who, like me, are new to the business of hydraulics repair. I asked if it was really necessary to use Kubota's wildly overpriced parts, and I learned that any hydraulic shop should be able to rebuild the cylinder without buying Kubota products. Given that the price of the parts is $165 before delivery and tax, there should be a lot of leeway that could be applied to labor.

No one has been able to give me a reason why Kubota charges so much for these parts. I can get genuine Kubota kits for bigger cylinders for about 25% of the cost of steering parts.
 

rbargeron

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I bring hydraulic cylinders into my favorite hydraulics repair shop - where they match up the seals, glands, wipers, etc and hand it back to me assembled ready to put back on. No Kubota parts ever involved. The cost is always very reasonable. BTW, about your avatar, was Pat Butram a friend?
 
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Mr Haney

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L3710
May 23, 2022
153
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FL
I bring hydraulic cylinders into my favorite hydraulics repair shop - where they match up the seals, glands, wipers, etc and hand it back to me assembled ready to put back on. No Kubota parts ever involved. The cost is always very reasonable. BTW, about your avatar, was Pat Butram a friend?
No, I just consider him my role model in all financial transactions.
 

lugbolt

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don't have to remove the radiator. One bolt is tough to get at, but do-able without removing radiator. let the cyl drop a little then take the lines off. One rear pin is held down by a bolt that goes in from the top. At first glance it looks like you have to disassemble half of the tractor, but if you steer it a little, the pin becomes accessible.

Rebuilding isn't terribly hard BUT, you need a few tools. Picks, snap ring pliers, etc. Also, look very closely at the bore, the rod, and then the bushings. If the bore is worn (and you will have to measure), it is junk and a rebuild will only prolong the inevitable a little longer. If the bushings are worn in the end caps, you can replace them but they are very easily dinged up while pressing them in which is why they're supposed to be reamed to size after pressing. There are quite a few seals o-rings and such, get them all because you don't want to have to rebuild it a second time as the parts add up in cost, quickly. 3 years ago, the parts + labor (at $100/hr) to remove, rebuild, reinstall the steering cylinders was about the same cost as just replacing the cylinder. I don't know now.
 
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Mr Haney

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L3710
May 23, 2022
153
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FL
Man, that is really helpful. Thanks. It's great to hear from someone who has done it.

When you say "steer it," do you mean turn the wheels one way or the other before getting to work?

I am able to get the lines off and remove the pitman arm screws. That leaves the "rod end shaft stopper mounting screw," according to Kubota. I think that's the fastener that's hard to get to. It looks like it's directly under the radiator. I don't even know what a "rod end shaft stopper" is. I looked it up on the web, and it appears Kubota is the only company that uses this term.

The tiny, grainy, black-and-white pictures in the Kubota manual are no end of help.
 

Mr Haney

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L3710
May 23, 2022
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I am at the point where I can get the cylinder out. I will post what I did in case anyone else has this problem.

Leave the loader in place. You have to remove the left side panel and bottom panel. Turn the wheels all the way to the left. Remove the grille, battery, and battery tray. Far as I can tell, nothing else has to come off.

I had problems with the battery tray because Kubota put welded nuts on the wrong part. The tray attaches by nuts welded to the upper surface, and the bolts are not stainless or in any way protected, so they rust and become one with the nuts. You can probably get three of them loose with a wrench, but Kubota put the bumper/loader stuff in the way of the forward bolt head on the left side, so you won't be able to get a real tool on it and may have to drill it out. I would recommend welding a nut on the underside of the part the tray sits on so you can get a proper tool on the bolt from above. Either that or just use ordinary nuts and bolts. They can't be any worse than Kubota's system.

With the battery tray off, you have open access to the rod end shaft stopper mounting screw. You can reach the Pitman arm cap screws by reaching in through the left side of the tractor.

My tractor has two hose connections under the cylinder, so if yours is like mine, you can remove the hoses from below the tractor with no obstructions.

My battery tray is corroded, probably from the previous owner, so I am going to get all the rust off and either repair it and cover it with Herculiner or buy a new tray. I'm sure somebody offers a plastic tray to sit on the metal tray in case anything leaks out, but Kubota did't include one, so I will look around and see if I can find one. If not, I'll bend up a stainless box and stick it in there.
 

Mr Haney

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L3710
May 23, 2022
153
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I have some unfortunate corrections to make to the post I made about getting the steering cylinder out.

I thought there was only one bolt holding the front end of the rod in place, and that bolt is exposed when you remove the battery tray. Sadly, there is a second bolt behind it, and Kubota puts it on good and tight. You won't be able to get a box wrench on it very well, and if you use one, you will probably round the head.

These two bolts keep a piece of sheet steel ("rod end shaft stopper") in place, and the edge of that piece goes into a groove around a pin ("rod end shaft") that holds the hydraulic rod in the tractor's frame. The piece of sheet prevents the pin from coming out. To get the rod loose, you have to take the bolts out and move the plate. Then the rod end shaft lifts out easily.

To get to the rear bolt, I drilled a 7/8" hole over it, in the grey part that blocks it. This part is something like 1/8" plate, and it's part of a frame structure that supports various things. The area I drilled through is way overbuilt, so drilling a hole in it will not cause any problems at all. I used a punch to locate the hole. Then I made a tiny pilot hole. Then I opened it up with a step bit. After that, I finished with two Silver & Deming bits. I deburred it with the step bit. I used plenty of oil. Once I had the hole drilled, I was able to put a socket on the second bolt ("rod end shaft stopper mounting screw") and pop it loose with a breaker bar.

Only one bolt appears in the manual, so the second one was a lovely surprise.

My cylinder has two fittings, and one has an S-shaped steel line that runs under the cylinder, putting the hose connections next to each other under the tractor. It is not easy getting wrenches on the connectors. A 19mm or 3/4" crow's foot wrench will help. Obviously, you need two wrenches on the connector to the steel line, because you can't apply torque to a thin pipe. You need to have one wrench on the line's fitting and one wrench on the hose's fitting

The two bolts on the Pitman arm cap are on tight from the factory, and it's hard to get a wrench on them, so expect to fiddle around coming up with a socket combination that works.

Once the hoses are off, the rod end shaft is out, and the Pitman arm cap is off, you will have to lift the cylinder out of the hole its bottom boss rotates in. You will probably have to retract the cylinder manually in order to get it out. There is a big washer that will fall out, so look out for that.

I think drilling the hole in the frame on the front of the radiator is a good idea. It can't hurt anything, and it takes a ton of work out of the job. Kubota should have done it. Specifying one extra hole in that part would have made untold hundreds or thousands of labor hours unnecessary.
 
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Mr Haney

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L3710
May 23, 2022
153
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FL
I got my cylinder back. The cost of rebuilding it was about $220.

The bill says I paid $20 for freight, although I carried it in myself. I paid a $10 environmental fee, for a cylinder which contained no oil that had to be disposed of. Shop supplies, unspecified, $15. Labor $90, which means one hour. Add it up, and it looks like I paid $135 for things other than parts.

I don't understand the freight charge, and I don't think this cylinder took anything like an hour to fix. They said there was nothing wrong with it other than old seals.

So other people can rebuild their own cylinders, I will list the parts installed.

MUU-25X33X5 U-seal 2 @ 13.63
MSWE-25X33X5 wiper 2 @ 4.25
MOR-49.5x3 O-rings 2 @ 1.13
MPS-55X4.3x2 piston seal 1 @ 36.15

The U-seal must be from Hercules, because their MSRP is $13.63. From Hercules, the seal is $10.23. The wiper is $3.19 from Hercules. The O-rings are 85 cents. The piston seal is $27.11 from Hercules. So I lost a few bucks paying MSRP, but on the other hand, no shipping cost.

If I had known all this now, I would have bought Kubota seals and repaired the cylinder myself. I would have paid for shipping, but I would have saved something like $80.

I don't know why seals for this thing cost so much more than seals for other Kubota cylinders. I thought Kubota was just trying to stick it to me, but this is clearly not the reason. I mean, yes, they were trying to stick it to me, but I thought the seals should be around $40, like kits for other Kubota cylinders, and it turned out the piston seal was so expensive, there was no way Kubota could sell me all the things I needed for under around $90. They wanted about $130, which is unreasonable, but a $40 ripoff is better than the $90 ripoff I thought they were trying to pull off.

This cylinder is also used on a bunch of other Kubotas, so the information posted above will work for them as well.

I have 4 more Kubota cylinders, and kits are available for all of them, so this should be the last time I ever have to pay for a rebuild. Kits for my cylinders list for $50 each, so I should be able to do all of them for a little more than $200.

I picked up some Kubota UDT today. I thought I had to get Super UDT2, but the dealer said it was not needed for a tractor as old as mine, so I saved maybe $50 there.

In case anyone is interested, I spent a lot of time looking for cheaper hydraulic oils. The one thing I found that looked really good was Amalie Ultra All-Trac 245, which is supposedly made with Kubota SUDT2 in mind. Since I bought UDT instead of SUDT2, Amalie would not have saved me much, if anything. I found it on Ebay for around $30 less than SUDT2 per 5-gallon pail.

I have seen Shell HD Tractor Fluid recommended, but I called Shell, and they said this oil was not approved for Kubota SUDT2 purposes. A lot of people say they use it in Kubotas, and it's around $75 at Tractor Supply, but Shell won't stand behind it.

At least I can say this failure occurred right at the time when I needed to replace my hydraulic oil and filters.

Hope this info helps other owners.
 

Henro

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I would obviously dispute the $20 freight charge.

Otherwise your final posts seem like sour grapes to me. I could be missing something though.

At least you have a cylinder that should work for you now.
 

Mr Haney

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L3710
May 23, 2022
153
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28
FL
I think you're taking an emotional position about this and reading things into it that aren't there. I'm not emotional about the repair price. If anyone thinks I'm upset with the shop, they're assuming things. I am simply reporting what happened. For all I know, they charge everyone $20 as an intake fee. I'm annoyed with Kubota but not the shop.

They quoted the price before they repaired the cylinder, so if I had had a problem with it, I would have taken it home. I expect tradesmen to pump up their bills and provide questionable explanations, so I didn't lose sleep over it. That being said, now that I have provided the part descriptions, other people can save a lot of money. I didn't come here to raise hell about repair prices. I came to help other people in the same situation.

If I have to get anything else fixed by a shop, I'll try a different place to see if they're cheaper. When I used to bill by the hour, my minimum was 6 minutes, not 60. Maybe other places don't bill an entire hour for a quick job, but if they do, I won't be any worse off than I would be if I went to this shop twice.

In case anyone thinks this job took a solid hour, to fix a cylinder like this one, you pop off two snap rings, pull the rod and piston out, pull the old seals and things off, measure for new parts, make sure the cylinder and piston are free from debris, pop the new parts on, and slap the cylinder back together. It is possible they hooked it up and pressurized it to test it, but I'll bet they didn't, because the cylinder is in great shape, and there was no reason to expect it to leak. They definitely didn't clean it. I don't see any way they came close to putting an hour into it, but maybe someone can pipe up and tell us where the labor went.

Maybe it took them a while to figure out which parts to use, but they have repaired thousands of cylinders, so I doubt it takes them long to see what they need. It's not a rare or exotic cylinder.
 

Henro

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I think you're taking an emotional position about this and reading things into it that aren't there. I'm not emotional about the repair price. If anyone thinks I'm upset with the shop, they're assuming things. I am simply reporting what happened. For all I know, they charge everyone $20 as an intake fee. I'm annoyed with Kubota but not the shop.

They quoted the price before they repaired the cylinder, so if I had had a problem with it, I would have taken it home. I expect tradesmen to pump up their bills and provide questionable explanations, so I didn't lose sleep over it. That being said, now that I have provided the part descriptions, other people can save a lot of money. I didn't come here to raise hell about repair prices. I came to help other people in the same situation.

If I have to get anything else fixed by a shop, I'll try a different place to see if they're cheaper. When I used to bill by the hour, my minimum was 6 minutes, not 60. Maybe other places don't bill an entire hour for a quick job, but if they do, I won't be any worse off than I would be if I went to this shop twice.

In case anyone thinks this job took a solid hour, to fix a cylinder like this one, you pop off two snap rings, pull the rod and piston out, pull the old seals and things off, measure for new parts, make sure the cylinder and piston are free from debris, pop the new parts on, and slap the cylinder back together. It is possible they hooked it up and pressurized it to test it, but I'll bet they didn't, because the cylinder is in great shape, and there was no reason to expect it to leak. They definitely didn't clean it. I don't see any way they came close to putting an hour into it, but maybe someone can pipe up and tell us where the labor went.

Maybe it took them a while to figure out which parts to use, but they have repaired thousands of cylinders, so I doubt it takes them long to see what they need. It's not a rare or exotic cylinder.
There are also other things that need be done if one is in the business of repairing cylinders. NOT just replacing seals. Like measurements to ensure the cylinder bore is not excessively worn and so on.

Maybe you are missing the big picture? A proper evaluation and repair is not just simply replacing parts and hoping for the best.

Everything else takes time, and time is money.
 

Mr Haney

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L3710
May 23, 2022
153
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28
FL
It's pretty obvious when a rod is damaged, and if the piston had been scraping the cylinder, that should have been obvious, too. The piston and cylinder would have been scored. This is a fat cylinder with a 5.5" stroke, so it's not like it would be hard to look inside it. The wipers were still in place, so there was no way for the end caps to be damaged by the rod.

Are you a mechanic? From the list of machines next to your handle, I would guess not. I think we should wait to hear from a professional instead of guessing what additional things they might have done.
 

MOOTS

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Maybe that was their F U price, and you paid it. Courtesy and kindness goes a long way in those 1 or 2 man, mom and pop shops.

Every thread you have posted about this cylinder, you have sorta came off as an ass.
 
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Mr Haney

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L3710
May 23, 2022
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I have tried to be courteous and helpful, and I was nothing but nice to the people who fixed the cylinder. Perhaps I'm not your cup of tea.

When I came back and posted the parts list, there was nothing in it for me. I wanted to help other owners.
 

MOOTS

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Again, I don’t know and I don’t know you.

But the hydraulic shop I deal with on the regular, is 3 guys in the shop, and one building hoses/running credit cards in office. Not a rough bunch, but one you wouldn’t talk shit to after a few beers. They are usually $50-80 cheaper to build the cylinder/pump than just the parts would cost from Kubota or Toro.
 
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Mr Haney

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L3710
May 23, 2022
153
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28
FL
I paid these folks exactly what they asked and never questioned anything or complained. I didn't say a word when they promised the part for last week and was then told it wasn't coming until today.

I am not criticizing them now. I'm just saying I think I might be able to do better than their minimum labor charge and freight charge.
 

MOOTS

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Yea that freight charge is kinda stupid, considering you carried the cylinder in.
 

lugbolt

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ZG127S-54
Oct 15, 2015
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As businesses, we are all facing unprecedented times.

Look at how business works. You buy land and building. You buy stuff to fill it. You pay employees, you pay taxes, insurance, utilities, everything that comes with keeping the doors open is a cost, and businesses pay these costs which are higher than what individuals would have to pay.

So how do they make any money and/or stay in business?

They pass the costs on. Place I used to work at had a $125,000/mo budget. That was what was required to see a 3.25% margin. Ideally we'd be more than that, and for the 2 years I was managing, it was, with the exception of 3 months. 2 in the dead of winter, and one where the business moved to another building, most of the month was shut down trying to ready things to be moved. Moving an entire business SUCKS!

--BUT--

every so often, the utility rate changes (always goes up). Mortgages on commercial properties are a little different than single-family residential, so that sometimes goes up. Rent/lease always goes up. Utilities never go down. Gotta pay your employees and give them a little incentive to stay, especially now. The list goes on and on and on. Insurance goes up, a lot, but not that often.

The trick is to figure out how to offset those costs by selling goods and services to the public. The public pays those bills when they're buying from your dealership. So there's another dealer across town that has a $100/hr shop labor rate, and they work on everything. Or they sell parts for everything. You have to compete with them, but you can't because your overhead is a little higher. So what do you do? You tack on little fees here and there. Shipping costs. Delivery costs. Surcharges. Document fees. Processing fees. This fee, that fee, a fee to use their restroom, you get the idea. Now, once you figure in the budget projections, you're staying above water, but still have a less expensive product or service than the other place.

ALL dealers are charging environmental fees, it's on every single repair order now. It's generally a flat fee or a flat percentage to a maximum. This covers the costs involved in shop supplies, such as but not limited to, rags, towels, rugs, oil dry, brooms, dust pans, shop gloves, or whatever. Stuff costs more now than it did 10 years ago, and YOU, the customer, are paying it whether you like it or not. It's part of doing business.

Having run a service dept, and a parts dept in a busy multiple product line dealer, I can attest to all these little costs that add up. It's very eye opening. And, as one who's run a business on their own, I can attest to how commercial properties (businesses) are taxed, fee'd, and charged differently than residential. Many compare their utility bill to a business, it can't be that bad can it? Out here, the commercial rate is almost 100% more than the residential rate....just to give you an idea. And costs, as I said, never go down, always up.

Just wages alone. You have two techs, you better pay them good. If you don't they're gonna load their stuff and be gone with little or sometimes no warning, leaving you with a bunch of mad customers because your shop can't keep up. Think about that. You pay 'em $20/hr (to throw a number out there, ain't too many who'll work for $20/hr now unless they're entry level). 160 hours a month x $20 = $3200 x 2 techs = $6400/mo-that's JUST wages, not counting any commissions, any insurances, all that. There are many "hidden" costs involved in having someone work for you, often a $20/hr wage costs the business closer to $30/hr by time they figure in the actual costs (taxes insurance, fees, etc)

I could get political, but won't. Just always ask yourself why the cost of stuff goes up. DO I agree with any of it? Not a snowball's chance, but it's the unfortunate truth of today's capitalist economy.
 
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