I have an M7500DT which mounts a 307002-4472 pump, and I was wondering if there is a reasonable way to increase the flowrate of the pump? (Maybe a higher flow unit that has the same shaft/mounting flange) I would love to get something that will put out mid 20s GPM if possible.
Upgrade compatibility for hydraulic pump?
- Thread starter Oktm
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TheOldHokie
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L3901/LA525, B7200DT/B1630, G2160/RCK60, G2460/RCK60
Finding and fitting a pump aside a 25 GPM pump is 2.5 times the current flow. There is a very real possibility the internal and external plumbing on the tractor is unable to handle that volume.
There are other ways of increasing the available flow. So let me ask what you want to operate that needs that volume of flow.
Dan
∆∆ Yeah, what he said. The odds that your hoses and valves are sized for much above stock flow is about zilch.
GreensvilleJay
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BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
A higher flow pump will be longer and the picture doesn't show whats 'to the left' of the pump now.
As the others have said the 'plumbing'( hoses and valves' WILL be the issue.
My gut says either a PTO driven or crankshaft pump will be easier to bodge.
It'd be nice to know the application,might be a simple 'off the shelf' solution that's cost effective.
As the others have said the 'plumbing'( hoses and valves' WILL be the issue.
My gut says either a PTO driven or crankshaft pump will be easier to bodge.
It'd be nice to know the application,might be a simple 'off the shelf' solution that's cost effective.
I have a lot of different hats for this tractor to wear, one of which is a lot of snow removal. The previous owner has made it necessary for me to so some work on the bucket/pins, and I am going to put together a bobcat style quick attach plate and mount for the front end. That got me thinking about snow removal and I would really like to pick up one of those fancy front mounted snowblower attachments. They usually require at least 24 GPM of flow to operate, and I would rather run it off the tractor than have a second engine running the blower. When I have been looking around I have also noticed they sometimes stack the pumps, but again I am not sure how any of this stuff works. I was hoping to be able to set an extra valve that can run a front or rear remote if possible.
Also, I know there is SOME room behind the pump, but I do not have a good picture of that side at the moment. I will be at my property tonight so I will try to get a better picture/measurement.
Also, I know there is SOME room behind the pump, but I do not have a good picture of that side at the moment. I will be at my property tonight so I will try to get a better picture/measurement.
TheOldHokie
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Trying to run a 25 GPM hydraulic motor off the tractor hydraulics is not reasonable. For something like that do what municipalities do for similar applications - add an auxiliary hydraulic pump AND reservoir to the tractor. Here is a 20 GPM PTO pump - dirt cheap at $420 and it simply slides on to the PTO.
21.2 GPM Dynamic GP-PTO-A-9-6-S Hydraulic Tractor PTO Pump 540 RPM | PTO Pumps | Hydraulic Pumps | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com
21.2 GPM Dynamic GP-PTO-A-9-6-S Hydraulic Tractor PTO Pump 540 RPM, PTO Pumps, 540 RPM DYNAMIC HYDRAULIC POWER TAKE OFF PTO PUMP Brand newDynamic,GP-PTO-A-9-6-S ,
www.surpluscenter.com
Couple that with a 40 gallon external reservoir - another $500.
Hydraulic Reservoirs | Hydraulic Reservoirs & Oil Coolers | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com
Hydraulic Reservoirs,Hydraulic Reservoirs & Oil Coolers,Hydraulics, 10 GALLON HYDRAULIC RESERVOIR Brand new, superior quality hydraulic reservoir.
www.surpluscenter.com
Plumb in a single spool motor valve for another $200 and you are more than good to go.
1 Spool 25 GPM Prince RD512EA5A4B1 Motor Spool Valve | Directional Control Valves | Hydraulic Valves | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com
1 Spool 25 GPM Prince RD512EA5A4B1 Motor Spool Valve, Directional Control Valves, 1 SPOOL 25 GPM RD512EA5A4B1 MOTOR SPOOL VALVE, ONE SPOOL PRINCEPrince Mfg,RD512EA5A4B1 ,
www.surpluscenter.com
Dan
Thank you for the information, is there a universal pump that can be connected to the nose of the crank pully? I think there are scenarios where it would be useful to be able to use the PTO as well as have an extra hydraulic circuit I only glanced at it when taking the fan belts off, but it looked like there was a shaft with a toothed gear on the end of it coming off the crank already, Is there a standard for that kind of a thing for being able to use it to drive a pump? Maybe the best thing for implement hydraulics would to just add a 3rd valve on the FEL stack and use that pump if I want to run a hydraulic motor though...
Also, are there any good guides for Identifying valves and fitting types? My FEL connects to the valves with a loose collection of different diameter/length hoses that make the whole right side of the operator station a mess. I would like to run hardlines from the valves to just below the FEL and use shorter hoses, but I don't really want to tear into it until I have the replacement ready.
Thank you again for your time!
Also, are there any good guides for Identifying valves and fitting types? My FEL connects to the valves with a loose collection of different diameter/length hoses that make the whole right side of the operator station a mess. I would like to run hardlines from the valves to just below the FEL and use shorter hoses, but I don't really want to tear into it until I have the replacement ready.
Thank you again for your time!
TheOldHokie
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You can power a pump from the crankshaft. That is a common setup on AG tractors and probably the best fit for your needs and wants.
A 3 CID gear pump gives you 25 GPM @2000 engine RPM and can be purchased for as little as $250. Mounting it to your tractor would require some minor fabrication but probably not a lot. I have built several for customers over the last 15 years and its usually pretty straightforward.
You will still need an external reservoir because your tractor does nor have enough sump capacity for that additional load.
Find a friend that can make custom hoses for your loader and pair them with some steel lines.
Dan
Some Kubotas in the construction line have crank-driven pumps. You could look at the parts diagrams for the L35, L39, L45, L47, L48, M59 or M62 to see how it's done. Some of the larger ones have multiple pumps and complex systems.
A downside to the crank drive is you can't disengage it when you're not using it. And the added reservoir becomes a permanent fixture.
I took some more pictures, it looks like this tractor may be set up for that gear pump you were talking about. I want to look into making up my own reservoir for the fluid that will fit in the tractor a little better. What is the smallest capacity you think I could get away with for this application? Also, do you know of a good source for steel lines? Or is it best to just to try to find a local place?
TheOldHokie
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Kubota had a stub shaft for front power take off on some of their older tractors. Matching the spline may be difficult. Might be easier to make your own adapter.
Your snow blower is essentially a 100% duty cycle so you can't skimp too much on reservoir capacity. If its only going to be used in cold weather reservoir the same size as flow rate is probably OK heat wise. The other concern is aerating the oil and 1.5:1 would be better, 2:1 is the general rule if thumb.
For steel lines buy a 37 degree flaring tool and make your own.
Dan
I just realized I did not actually attach the pictures I took! I think that shaft off the pulley may be the type that links to a similar setup and uses a chain wrapped around them both to link, but I am not sure. I have been looking at pumps and such and am trying to figure out what is likely to work in this situation. I feel like a pump should bolt into that U in the picture and connect to the front shaft.
TheOldHokie
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Sure looks like someone had a driveshaft for something on there. If that is part of a chain coupler and its not chewed up all you would need is the other 2/3 and a shaft. Push comes to shove you can easily make your own crankshaft adapter. Measure the spacing on those two slots to see if they match up with an SAE B two bolt pump. The spacing on them is 4.75".
Dan
Yeah, looks like you've got half a coupling. I don't think those chain couplings are really designed to support the shaft - you'd need something like a flange bearing to support that end of the shaft - but it may work okay without one. The advantage to that coupling is you could take the chain off without too much trouble (easy for me to say) when you're not going to need high flow for a while.
Don't forget to plan for a suction filter. Maybe 2 in parallel for the flow you're looking for.
Don't forget to plan for a suction filter. Maybe 2 in parallel for the flow you're looking for.
TheOldHokie
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I use those couplings in this exact application on a regular basis. Its exactly what they are designed for. It is important however to get the shaft alignment dialed in as best you can. The couplings are designed to accomodate shaft misalignment but the more there is the more side loading you put on the pump input shaft. Most of these pumps have bushings not bearings and dont like side loads. You also need to know what size chain that coupler uses. Number 40 and 50 are the most common sizes.
I would also suggest a 100 mesh tank strainer in the suction line and a filter with bypass in the return line. You want to make that suction line as free flowing as possible.
Dan
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Probably the fastest and easiest method is to try and get a different machine or run a dedicated PTO powered hydraulic pump circuit for whatever you are trying to run.
My biggest priority is to make whatever I do fairly clean. I have been considering instances in which I would be using a high flow front attachment and I am not sure if there would realistically be an instance where I would NEED the PTO and the front attachment at the same time, so it is probably going to come down to which type of pump is going to be cheaper. I am planning to run hardline for some of the existing hose, and I want to plan for this while I am at it so I am either going to run line to the front for the pump to feed or to the back for a removal PTO pump to feed.
I was thinking I may be able to put some quick attach connectors low near the PTO and just have a PTO pump and tank with some short hoses that will connect to those fittings. I could even probably get away with no valve and control the direction of the implement by which direction I connect the pump/res into the two disconnects. The install would be much cleaner, and I could use the PTO clutch/shifter to control the pump. In another thread I am investigating adding a 3rd valve for a FEL/rear aux hydraulic circuit.
Do quick disconnects become a problem in these situations? Also, what diameter line should I be looking at for this?
I was thinking I may be able to put some quick attach connectors low near the PTO and just have a PTO pump and tank with some short hoses that will connect to those fittings. I could even probably get away with no valve and control the direction of the implement by which direction I connect the pump/res into the two disconnects. The install would be much cleaner, and I could use the PTO clutch/shifter to control the pump. In another thread I am investigating adding a 3rd valve for a FEL/rear aux hydraulic circuit.
Do quick disconnects become a problem in these situations? Also, what diameter line should I be looking at for this?
TheOldHokie
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Minimum for 25 GPM:
Suction: 1-1/4"
Pressure: 3/4"
Return: 1"
Doing that with steel would be a challenge.
Quick connectors are OK on pressurecand return but wont be cheap in those sizes. I would recommend you not use them on the suction side. If possible it would also be desirable to have the pump inlet below the level of the reservoir - aka flooded inlet
Personally I would opt for a front pump over PTO and leave it on the tractor full time.
Dan
Oktm I ran PTO pumps for years on planters to gain Hyd gallon cap. It was a great day on the farm when I got a tractor with enough GPM hyd to run the planter and the PTO pumps were gone. They worked good but they are a pain to deal with. Your tractor looks like its set up for a front mount hyd pump. That's the way I would go on it.
TheOldHokie
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L3901/LA525, B7200DT/B1630, G2160/RCK60, G2460/RCK60
I just looked at your other thread about the factory valves. Messicks lists that work section at $500 - it may or may not actually be available. Let me suggest you forget about that and purchase a new sectional valve for your high flow pump. One section would be a motor spool for the blower and a second section would be a DA valve for rear remotes or third function. You could put that on the tractor for about $700.
As you can see you are spending big bucks modernizing and upgrading a very old tractor.
Dan