An Alternative Home Power Source.

[Chanceywd]

I love my propane powered Generac Fixed Cabinet set up. It turns itself on and off as needed, no cords to worry about and it transfers itself on and off by itself. No worries about some one giving it a new home either. Only service required is oil and filter and a new air cleaner element annually.

I installed a generac 20kw propane with automatic transfer switch this last year. At 68 i was tired of the dragging stuff out and up and down the cellar stairs to do the breaker transfer etc. We have had 2 failures in the last month one about 1/2 hr and one about 2 hrs. the longer one was during the day and it was down around zero. It made me smile when it came on and transferred! like the day I got my Kubota!

Bill

 

[Magicman]

What is a BIG DEAL is if you forget to turn off the main breaker in you service panel, and end up putting voltage back on the system lines, which could be a very bad thing for utility people who come out to fix the service outage.

Please give this serious consideration.

No Sir. Again you have not paid attention. The GenerLink transfers the power input to the main breaker from the power company/meter to the generator output when the power fails. When power is restored it transfers the main breaker input from the generator back to the power company/meter. The transfer is automatic and the GenerLink was installed by my power company.

Nothing has anything to do with me remembering or forgetting to do anything. It is impossible for my generator to feed back and onto the power grid.

 

[Old_Paint]

No Sir. Again you have not paid attention. The GenerLink transfers the power input to the main breaker from the power company/meter to the generator output when the power fails. When power is restored it transfers the main breaker input from the generator back to the power company/meter. The transfer is automatic and the GenerLink was installed by my power company.

Nothing has anything to do with me remembering or forgetting to do anything. It is impossible for my generator to feed back and onto the power grid.

The GenerLink appears to be an open transition transfer switch, not closed transition, which would require synchronizing with the utility before it transferred back. If it didn't synchronize, it would likely break the crankshaft of the generator engine. I've spent the last 40 years making generators and utilities play in the sandbox together.

As for being able to do this with a Solar, or Wind system whoever said inverters won't work without utility power is WRONG. The number of off-grid inverter models completely shades the number of grid-tie systems and are a lot less expensive. In fact, it's hard to find grid-tie systems commercially available other than through installers and system dealers. You can buy off grid systems all day long. Trust me, I've looked. Availability is one of the things that has stopped me from bothering with a solar panel system. The ROI just isn't there with the cost of a contractor installing the panels and all the hardware. Off-grid DIY is easy, but when you go to grid-tie systems, there's all kinds of fun with utility billing contracts, local inspections, etc, etc. As far as using an off-grid system with the GenerLink, it should be absolutely doable and in-fact quite easy. As long as your inverter can supply 240V, it should quite handily work with the GenerLink just as well as any generator. All the GenerLink does is disconnect the Utility from your house and connect your generator, without having to move any wires. It's little more than a transfer switch with some extra blinky lights, designed to fit in a meter socket, and with a flange which allows putting a seal collar on the meter. The meter normally provides the bridge connection between your house wiring and the Utility service. The Generlink just makes that bridge switchable. If there's no utility power, and "generator" power is present, it will switch to the "generator" power. There's no magical difference in the output of an inverter and a generator. They've both got to feed the same loads in the house, so obviously, there can't be much difference in the power, right? How long it will last will be determined how fast you can get some loading off it. Obviously, if it's dark, unless you have a massive battery bank, it isn't going to last long if the oven is on, the hot water heater is on and the heat pump is chugging away. For that purpose, a better location for a transfer switch feeding only critical loads is the smarter option. Not always a doable option, though, and certainly not the least expensive. The price on these things is good, and apparently there's some bluetooth capabilities as well. I'd love to see some dry contacts wired out, too, but that could easily turn into a maintenance item if not properly sealed. A well-placed smart device or two, cell phone or tablet, and bingo, you've got a pretty slick system with a fairly simple bit of programming.

I think I'm calling Alabama Power soon. The GenerLink and a 3PH generator hanging off the back of my LX will give me backup power and no extra engine to maintain. Just roll the shaft once in a while to keep the bearings coated with grease. APCo came through a few years ago and replaced all the meters in this area with smart meters, and in that process broke my meter socket. Had to have 'em come back out when one leg failed and disconnect me so I could replace the meter socket. Didn't cost me anything because it also fried their meter (burnt one stud off). Silly me, I should have put a transfer switch in that day. We don't get many outages here, though, unless a really serious tornado blows through. Then being without power is the least of my worries if my LX winds up in the next county.

 

[top gnome]

Thank you for the answers on solar. The grid tied system is working well but outages are an issue. We have long power outages with severe tropical storms and nor easters. We have had power out over 5 days in the summer and over 2 days a couple of weeks ago. We are thinking about getting a whole house generator because we are also tired of dragging cords around. and our small generator does not do 220v so we have to stock up on water before the storm.

The grid tied system works well for us but Nova Scotia Power just tried to pull a fast one and asked the board to charge a $8.00 a kw fee for solar users to store power on the grid. The payback on solar is already approx 10 years that would in effect double it. If that happened it would make sense to go off grid for potions of the house in the spring summer and fall. the winter we do not make any meaningful power.

It is hard to know that we are out of power for 4 or 5 days after a hurricane when the system is generating all the power we would need if we could access it.

 

[Tropical Jack]

I guess maybe I am missing something here. I have an interlock transfer switch and a 50 amp inlet box. My total installed cost was less than $200 and a couple of hours of my labor. Is the main advantage of the Generlink that it does the transfer back to utility power automatically? That it switches the neutral as well as the hots? Or is it just considered a cleaner install? I am just trying to understand the price difference.

Jack

 

[WFM]

The GenLink looks like a neat switch for city folks with natural gas. Unforuntally for me living in the woods not an option. We do have propane and I'd need a bigger tank(s) for a generac outside generator but I've heard they really chew thru the propane if they run for 8 hrs or more you need a torpedo tank for storage. That said , yes I'm sick of wheeling mine outside and hooking it up.

 

[Biker1mike]

WFM, That said , yes I'm sick of wheeling mine outside and hooking it up.

My Westinghouse 9.5K fits inside a plastic garbage can mini shed. 6 inch fan vented at the exhaust and a 12 inch passive vent on the opposite side. Lid down and doors open in the rain and no temperature issues.
At 350 pounds it may have wheels but you need to define portable.

 

[Magicman]

@Old_Paint, when the grid power is restored, the GenerLink disconnects from the generator and connects the house back to grid power. At that time the generator is still running but not supplying power to anything. The power in the house would momentarily disconnect indicating that it is time to shut the generator down.

@Tropical Jack, Yes, it could have been done cheaper by buying and installing a manual transfer switch. As stated, this is simply an "alternative" and more convenient method (for me) of transferring during a power outage. In my younger days I would have done it differently.

 

[Henro]

No Sir. Again you have not paid attention. The GenerLink transfers the power input to the main breaker from the power company/meter to the generator output when the power fails. When power is restored it transfers the main breaker input from the generator back to the power company/meter. The transfer is automatic and the GenerLink was installed by my power company.

Nothing has anything to do with me remembering or forgetting to do anything. It is impossible for my generator to feed back and onto the power grid.

I stand corrected for missing the following in your post:

Next on my shopping list was a transfer switch. This GenerLink plugs between the power meter and the power box and does the switching without me wiring in a transfer switch.

But not having to wire in a transfer switch was also mentioned in that paragraph...perhaps that is what confused this old mind...

 

[Old_Paint]

@Old_Paint, when the grid power is restored, the GenerLink disconnects from the generator and connects the house back to grid power. At that time the generator is still running but not supplying power to anything. The power in the house would momentarily disconnect indicating that it is time to shut the generator down.

We said the same thing with different words and perspective. I went to the GenerLink site to look at their product. It's a lot more convenient than having to put a transfer switch between your distribution panel and meter. That's a couple thousand bucks easy if contracted, not to mention a long outage to do the work. This thing, you get it, and have it waiting for the lineman to come cut the seal, pull the meter, plug this in, put a seal on it, then plug the meter in with another seal on that. Done in 20 minutes or less. I can see why linemen would love this thing too. The bonus is that if they pull your meter for isolation/safety, you can still get power to your house while they do their thing on the lines. On the flip side, with this device, you don't have to go turn off your main breaker. I'd like to see it with an additional time delay and some sort of output to prevent re-starting the AC, fridge, and freezer all at once, or even a blocking contact in case you don't have enough generator for the whole house. That's just the power management engineer in me.

With that device, if the lights go out, go start the generator. As soon as generator power is available, it will switch over to that. Lights back on after a very quick blink. Once Utility power is restored for a configurable time delay, flip back over and leave the generator running. If you're sleeping when that happens, you might not see it, though. With a direct feed from you're NG line, worst case, you burn a bit of NG running unloaded, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if a storm has been through. You're down in hurricane country and have to live with unstable power for a while after a biggun blows through. If you have any close neighbors, they're all gonna make long extension cords.

One other thing that I can see would be a huge plus, is the time delay for restored utility power. Sometimes, a recloser may blink the lights several times before giving up. Usually that is 4 tries then quit but may vary by Utility. Even if it were just quick blinks (tree limb on a line, Rocky the Squirrel finding out the hard way about electricity) it would prevent some of the surges to your appliances and electronics by just staying off until power was restored reliably. Get the one with surge protection, then you have double the protection. I like that feature. AC, fridge, freezer, and most anything else with a compressor or motor do NOT like surges from switching.

I assumed it didn't have anything to turn the generator off. It's normally better to let the generator run in a cool-down for a bit anyway, especially if you're running it anywhere near full rating. Besides that, I can't count the times the power comes back on, then 20 minutes later, goes off again.[/QUOTE]

 

[Geezer3d]

FWIW, I have a separate circuit to plug my generator into. The receptacle is outside my garage. I installed a mechanical interlock in my service panel which does not allow the generator circuit breaker to be switched on unless the main is switched off. It is not automatic, but the interlock cost less than 100 bucks and is simple to install if you are comfortable working in the service panel. The cable to the receptacle and the receptacle itself was another 100 bucks. Just google 'generator interlock' and you will find them available at a lot of different retailers.

 

[sagor]

Remember that there are different transfer panels, for different installations. Some transfer the neutral, some do not. It all usually depends if the neutral of the generator is isolated from chassis or not.
Most home generators (automatic like Generac) have isolated neutral, so it uses existing house neutral, which is grounded at the entrance service panel. Many portable generators have the neutral bonded to the frame, to allow a ground rod for places like a remote camp/cottage, where there is no neutral/ground bonding like in a house.
Almost all electrical codes specify that the neutral and ground are tied together at one and only one place in most homes. That is usually at the entrance panel.
It does get complicated, but check you local electrical codes first, before buying any transfer panel. Also, know what kind of neutral bonding your generator has...

 

[Old_Paint]

Now you guys got me thinking.

What if:

Let's say GenerLink made this thing configurable enough to select preferred power source. And let's say one had sufficient 'green' power to run their home off-grid. Basically, it would operate in the opposite situation of what the GenerLink is designed to do. What if you could set it up to stay on the "Auxiliary" power source as long as that was on, and only transfer to the Utility if the Auxiliary was OFF? That way, the meter sits still as long as you have power enough to run your home. It would be pretty easy with most inverters to signal low battery, and just have them turn off, whereby, the utility would be waiting to do it's thing. So, at night, if you're watching the Super Bowl on your super-duper off-grid electrical supply, and the battery gets a little flat, it'll quickly switch over to the Utility (hopefully during a commercial) and you can watch the rest of the game rather than run around hooking up generators, etc.

I'm reasonably sure that the meter is bypassed when the transfer to Auxiliary power is activated. That would be interesting to know as well. Otherwise you would wind up paying for your fuel AND spinning the meter to pay the power company as well. It's pretty amazing what utility companies are allowed to get away with. Grid Tie options have only been available to residential customers of APCo pretty much since the EPA started shutting all the coal fired generation. They (APCO) at least recognize the infrastructure is gonna be a huge problem as green laws tighten up, and a big part of the solution is going to be solar panels on every roof. They really want to own them, but there's too much federal intervention to let that happen.

 

[Chanceywd]

FWIW, I have a separate circuit to plug my generator into. The receptacle is outside my garage. I installed a mechanical interlock in my service panel which does not allow the generator circuit breaker to be switched on unless the main is switched off. It is not automatic, but the interlock cost less than 100 bucks and is simple to install if you are comfortable working in the service panel. The cable to the receptacle and the receptacle itself was another 100 bucks. Just google 'generator interlock' and you will find them available at a lot of different retailers.

That is the kind of set up I have but then went with a whole generator and transfer switch. Like you say the breaker interlock was an economical install. I left that in place in case I need it with a long outage and running out of propane. i can hook up the 3500 watt gas unit.
Bill

 

[lugbolt]

They

They want us on electric via solar and wind and then gasoline/diesel - in that order. Ignore Nuclear, keep denying permits for Nat gas and I believe CA just regulated all electric in all new homes - no natural gas. If you are out of the city propane is still an option. Makes no sense.

Ever wonder why the cost of living in CA is so high?

 

[DustyRusty]

Ever wonder why the cost of living in CA is so high?

Because they have to get their electrical needs from other states, just like their water needs?

 

[DustyRusty]

Because they have to get their electrical needs from other states, just like their water needs?

My automatic transfer switch transfers both the hot and the neutral lines, and the generator is hooked to a ground rod. Since I have a 200 amp circuit breaker on the backside of the meter socket and before the transfer switch, my main panel is considered a sub panel, and all the neutrals are separated from the grounds. I have a ground rod in the basement under the main (sub) panel, and then it goes into the garage, where it hits 2 more ground rods. When I built the home in 1983, the town or the utility required 2 ground rods, 20' apart so now we are up to 3 ground rods. The 2 ground rods were originally on the outside of the home, but I added another garage onto the home on that side, so they are not in the new garage along with the generator. The generator also had to have its own ground rod, so that added a 4th grounding rod. The electrical inspector wanted a ground rod under the new meter socket, and that added a 5 grounding rod, and then it finally ends up at the well casing. The interesting thing about all this is that the electrical inspector wanted it to be one continuous piece of wire. It wasn't easy, but I did manage to make it with one piece. Since the floor wasn't poured until everything was done, I used PVC conduits under the floor to connect all of this together.
The reason for the 200 amp disconnect after the meter socket and before the transfer switch is so I can disconnect the utility at any time to test the generator, which I do monthly.

 

[Magicman]

We went to a Great-Grandson's Birthday Party today and guess what? Yup, the power went out here for 50 minutes and I was not here to try out the new generator/transfer setup.

Ought to carry the whole mess back and demand a refund!!

 

[motionclone]

im waiting for the price of a mini portable fusion reactor to come down, until then i backfeed my box, dont need a suicide cable though they have a generator cord plug in recessed outlet that i wired in.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Always wondered how home solar/wind systems 'sync' onto the 'grid' to get the phasing right, espcially if grid goes down..you supply power...grid comes up...