Synthetic or Conventional motor oil in Kubota diesels

[fried1765]

What if the 15W40 is also synthetic? Its not really synthetic versus conventional as much as it is 5W vs 15W.

Dan

See post # 140 for FACT. instead of "opinion"!

 

[TheOldHokie]

See post # 140 for FACT. instead of "opinion"!

Let me preface this by saying I am a Mobil 1 user and a form believer in the value of synthetic engine oil. I also made a living dealing in facts not opinions.

Post number 140 is full of misinformation and opinion. Lets start with Mobil and PAO. Mobile "synthetic" oil is a blend of Group III, PAO, and ester base oils and has been for years.

Secondly comparing a 15w oil to a 5w oil is meaningless. A 5W is always going to be a better cold weather oil. Thats what the SAE viscosity grades tell us.

Please quit shouting and start listening to what people who also happen to agree with you are saying.

Dan

 

[fried1765]

Let me preface this by saying I am a Mobil 1 user and a form believer in the value of synthetic engine oil. I also made a living dealing in facts not opinions.

Post number 140 is full of misinformation and opinion. Lets start with Mobil and PAO. Mobile "synthetic" oil is a blend of Group III, PAO, and ester base oils and has been for years.

Secondly comparing a 15w oil to a 5w oil is meaningless. A 5W is always going to be a better cold weather oil. Thats what the SAE viscosity grades tell us.

Please quit shouting and start listening to what people who also happen to agree with you are saying.

Dan

It does appear that the majority of us cannot really differentiate between oil facts and opinion!

 

[TheOldHokie]

It does appear that the majority of us cannot really differentiate between oil facts and opinion!

Mobil never gives a straight answer when asked about formulations. But there are lots of sleuths in the world. Here are some incomplete Mobil formulations compiled using the CAS numbers in the MSDS of these oils. Note that M1 0w16 has by far th highest concentration of PAO augmented with a healthy treat of GTL. Not too surprising given the severity of that service and a VI of 163. Data as of 2019.

Dan

 

[bbxlr8]

Wow - just checked back in!!

I must say that this thread reflects the variety of opinions and some misinformation that also occur on the classic car forums also.

On those, we have some engineers that have been in the business since it developed and posted tests and specs to the point that test patience and they become FAQ.

Conventional wisdom says to go by the SAE API classifications, conditions i.e. anticipated temp & usage, combined with your preferences and budget!

 

[hagrid]

Conventional wisdom says to go by the SAE API classifications...

No no no no no...

 

[fried1765]

Wow - just checked back in!!

I must say that this thread reflects the variety of opinions and some misinformation that also occur on the classic car forums also.

On those, we have some engineers that have been in the business since it developed and posted tests and specs to the point that test patience and they become FAQ.

Conventional wisdom says to go by the SAE API classifications, conditions i.e. anticipated temp & usage, combined with your preferences and budget!

Seems as though "conventional wisdom" may often be superceeded by raw opinion!

 

[RalphVa]

It does appear that the majority of us cannot really differentiate between oil facts and opinion!

You should not label a whole post as misinformation. The only wrong information in the post is that M1 is made from PAO. This information is about 30 years old. Apparently, they have taken advantage of Group II and III oils being allowed to be called "synthetic" and have taken to blending some other oils, because those base oils are cheaper than PAOs.

 

[bbxlr8]

I am NOT labeling anything or saying what is misinformation OR trying to stir the pot or come at anyone. Just saying oil threads rile people up more than anything no matter which subset you are in and EVERYONE has an opinion.

I do stand by my last sentence...

 

[Mossy dell]

Everyone should watch the video where they fashioned both a transparent valve cover and pan on an old car. Changed the oil on it to have fresh oil. Then started it at -23 C (-9 F). After SEVERAL minutes there was still no oil flow to the overhead valves. Here's the Youtube video:

. You run the time indicator over with your mouse to about 1/2 way because most of the first half is their description of how they did the valve cover and pan.

Our research people once did a test at -40 C/F with a transparent valve cover on a Dodge or Plymouth 024 type engine with various oils and filmed the valve cover. EVERY oil they tested smoked the valve cover except Mobil 1.

A few years later, we merged with Mobil. Problem solved.

The only true synthetics for vehicle usage is by Mobil or Pennzoil. Mobil makes theirs out of poly alpha olefin, which is a plastics feedstock and therefore makes it expensive. Pennzoil make theirs out of natural gas, a cheap feedstock. Think all the Group V ones are stuff like esters that Exxon have made for years for jet/turbine engines. Amsoil's feedstock is Group IIi, not synthetic. It's all hydrotreated crude oil.

I have used Mobil 1 for at least three decades in my cars and in 3 previous tractors. My impression from recent tests is that a couple other oils beat it for peak performance. Ralph, if Amsoil is not really synthetic, how does it do this?

I still use Mobil 1—in my vehicles. Not in my baby. My B2601 gets Amsoil.

 

[RalphVa]

I have used Mobil 1 for at least three decades in my cars and in 3 previous tractors. My impression from recent tests is that a couple other oils beat it for peak performance. Ralph, if Amsoil is not really synthetic, how does it do this?

I still use Mobil 1—in my vehicles. Not in my baby. My B2601 gets Amsoil.

Amsoil, in a recent video, came right out said that their feedstock is a Group III base oil. These are hydrotreated to remove both aromatics and wax and allowed to call it synthetic. Certainly is "synthetic" compared to the goop that comes off the crude distillation. It is almost as good as a pure synthetic like an ester or multi-side-chained oil made from either PAO or NG. One way of ensuring you're getting a pure synthetic is to get something like a 0w40 or 0w30 that cannot likely be made otherwise. Until I saw the video I thought for sure that Amsoil were probably making something like an ester.

Exxon at one point were trying to get a big NG field in Indonesia. One good way of shipping NG is to convert it to bigger molecules like gasoline, kerosene or diesel or even lube oil. Avoids high cost of shipping in refrigerated containers. Don't think it happened. Apparently Pennzoil are doing this now. Doubt they got the Indonesian NG though. Maybe.

When I was still working, it was impossible to both meet Noack volatiility spec and make a 0wxx oil. A 0wxx dino oil will boil too low to meet volatility. Hydrotreated stuff can do this but probably not as easy as a pure synthetic from PAO or NG (Or slack wax: really good oil is just like paraffinic wax but with more side chains to keep it from solidifying at room temperature)

When it comes down to oils, if you change yearly or about every 100 hours and don't live in really cold climate, you can use any kind of oil, probably even a gasoline engine oil. If you keep going 200 hours or more and start with a very cold engine a lot, you need better oil but probably not if you trade off before about 1,000 hours, as the upper end of your engine will make it through not getting lubrication for a few seconds at every cold start. Basically, a 15w40 oil at cold start simply will not crank as fast as one with 0w30 or even 0w20 (allowed by Kubota, at least "SAE 20"). It'll start better and have the top end immediately get oil if you don't use a 15w40 or a straight 30w. I've done the calculations of cranking speeds.

Bear in mind that I haven't working since 1998. If that Dodge 024 test at -40 F/C were repeated today, a lot of oils would keep that valve train from making smoke. A 15w40 would almost burn it up. What saves users of 15w40 is a lot of tacky/thick oil hanging in there from last shutdown.

 

[fried1765]

Amsoil, in a recent video, came right out said that their feedstock is a Group III base oil. These are hydrotreated to remove both aromatics and wax and allowed to call it synthetic. Certainly is "synthetic" compared to the goop that comes off the crude distillation. It is almost as good as a pure synthetic like an ester or multi-side-chained oil made from either PAO or NG. One way of ensuring you're getting a pure synthetic is to get something like a 0w40 or 0w30 that cannot likely be made otherwise. Until I saw the video I thought for sure that Amsoil were probably making something like an ester.

Exxon at one point were trying to get a big NG field in Indonesia. One good way of shipping NG is to convert it to bigger molecules like gasoline, kerosene or diesel or even lube oil. Avoids high cost of shipping in refrigerated containers. Don't think it happened. Apparently Pennzoil are doing this now. Doubt they got the Indonesian NG though. Maybe.

When I was still working, it was impossible to both meet Noack volatiility spec and make a 0wxx oil. A 0wxx dino oil will boil too low to meet volatility. Hydrotreated stuff can do this but probably not as easy as a pure synthetic from PAO or NG (Or slack wax: really good oil is just like paraffinic wax but with more side chains to keep it from solidifying at room temperature)

When it comes down to oils, if you change yearly or about every 100 hours and don't live in really cold climate, you can use any kind of oil, probably even a gasoline engine oil. If you keep going 200 hours or more and start with a very cold engine a lot, you need better oil but probably not if you trade off before about 1,000 hours, as the upper end of your engine will make it through not getting lubrication for a few seconds at every cold start. Basically, a 15w40 oil at cold start simply will not crank as fast as one with 0w30 or even 0w20 (allowed by Kubota, at least "SAE 20"). It'll start better and have the top end immediately get oil if you don't use a 15w40 or a straight 30w. I've done the calculations of cranking speeds.

Bear in mind that I haven't working since 1998. If that Dodge 024 test at -40 F/C were repeated today, a lot of oils would keep that valve train from making smoke. A 15w40 would almost burn it up. What saves users of 15w40 is a lot of tacky/thick oil hanging in there from last shutdown.

"If you change yearly or about every 100 hours and don't live in really cold climate, you can use any kind of oil"
MY POINT....... EXACTLY!

 

[TheOldHokie]

Amsoil, in a recent video, came right out said that their feedstock is a Group III base oil. These are hydrotreated to remove both aromatics and wax and allowed to call it synthetic. Certainly is "synthetic" compared to the goop that comes off the crude distillation. It is almost as good as a pure synthetic like an ester or multi-side-chained oil made from either PAO or NG. One way of ensuring you're getting a pure synthetic is to get something like a 0w40 or 0w30 that cannot likely be made otherwise. Until I saw the video I thought for sure that Amsoil were probably making something like an ester.

Exxon at one point were trying to get a big NG field in Indonesia. One good way of shipping NG is to convert it to bigger molecules like gasoline, kerosene or diesel or even lube oil. Avoids high cost of shipping in refrigerated containers. Don't think it happened. Apparently Pennzoil are doing this now. Doubt they got the Indonesian NG though. Maybe.

When I was still working, it was impossible to both meet Noack volatiility spec and make a 0wxx oil. A 0wxx dino oil will boil too low to meet volatility. Hydrotreated stuff can do this but probably not as easy as a pure synthetic from PAO or NG (Or slack wax: really good oil is just like paraffinic wax but with more side chains to keep it from solidifying at room temperature)

When it comes down to oils, if you change yearly or about every 100 hours and don't live in really cold climate, you can use any kind of oil, probably even a gasoline engine oil. If you keep going 200 hours or more and start with a very cold engine a lot, you need better oil but probably not if you trade off before about 1,000 hours, as the upper end of your engine will make it through not getting lubrication for a few seconds at every cold start. Basically, a 15w40 oil at cold start simply will not crank as fast as one with 0w30 or even 0w20 (allowed by Kubota, at least "SAE 20"). It'll start better and have the top end immediately get oil if you don't use a 15w40 or a straight 30w. I've done the calculations of cranking speeds.

Bear in mind that I haven't working since 1998. If that Dodge 024 test at -40 F/C were repeated today, a lot of oils would keep that valve train from making smoke. A 15w40 would almost burn it up. What saves users of 15w40 is a lot of tacky/thick oil hanging in there from last shutdown.

GTL is still classed as a Group III oil and just about everybody is using some type of GTL process to turn slack wax into Group III+ base stocks with a little diesel on the side. There have been rumblings about making Group II+ and III+ official API categories for a long time now. Things keep changing but just about any current 0Wxx oil is going to be heavy on PAO and/or Group III+.

I never owned a Dodge 024 but one 0F morning I did toast the top end in a Thunderbird Turbo Coupe using Roger Roadracer's favorite - Castrol GTX 20W50. Tacky/thick didn't work and I learned that lesson the hard way. I am confident the 5W40 that just went into the new L3901 will do just fine.

Dan

 

[Mossy dell]

One way of ensuring you're getting a pure synthetic is to get something like a 0w40 or 0w30 that cannot likely be made otherwise.

Amsoil sells 0w20 and 0w40 though, maybe others.

 

[RalphVa]

Amsoil sells 0w20 and 0w40 though, maybe others.

Amsoil would have to add a VI improver (a chemical additive) to get the 0w40; I'm sure. M1 can probably make it from PAO as could Pennzoil from NG. The chemical additives are the things that often break down or further polymerize and get thicker.

The 0w20 can probably be made directly from Group III but might have troubles with Noack volatility test.

 

[RalphVa]

Those of you running that 15w40? Wonder why your engine starts and dies in the winter until it finally gets going?

Well, an engine that would crank at 170 rpm with 10w30 oil would only crank at 100 rpm in that goey 15w40. Then it would be reluctant to run as well until that goey stuff is warmed up.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Amsoil would have to add a VI improver (a chemical additive) to get the 0w40; I'm sure. M1 can probably make it from PAO as could Pennzoil from NG. The chemical additives are the things that often break down or further polymerize and get thicker.

The 0w20 can probably be made directly from Group III but might have troubles with Noack volatility test.

I dont know of any multigrade M1 product that does not use VI improvers. I use M1 0W40 Full Synthetic in my two twin turbo BMWs and two naturally aspirated BMWs. If you go back and look at the list I posted it is roughly 10-20 PAO and 50-60 Group III+ (GTL). Last NOACK number I had was 9% so it easily passes with room to spare.

Dan

 

[bbxlr8]

When it comes down to oils, if you change yearly or about every 100 hours and don't live in really cold climate, you can use any kind of oil, probably even a gasoline engine oil. If you keep going 200 hours or more and start with a very cold engine a lot, you need better oil but probably not if you trade off before about 1,000 hours, as the upper end of your engine will make it through not getting lubrication for a few seconds at every cold start. Basically, a 15w40 oil at cold start simply will not crank as fast as one with 0w30 or even 0w20 (allowed by Kubota, at least "SAE 20"). It'll start better and have the top end immediately get oil if you don't use a 15w40 or a straight 30w. I've done the calculations of cranking speeds.

Here I am jumping back in when I really try to keep out of these threads...

Ralph, you obviously have a lot of experience and are getting to the same point I was trying to make when you came at me.

Conventional wisdom says to go by the SAE API classifications, conditions i.e. anticipated temp & usage, combined with your preferences and budget!

 

[TheOldHokie]

Here I am jumping back in when I really try to keep out of these threads...

Ralph, you obviously have a lot of experience and are getting to the same point I was trying to make when you came at me.

Conventional wisdom says to go by the SAE API classifications, conditions i.e. anticipated temp & usage, combined with your preferences and budget!

So forget conventional vs. synthetic. What SAE viscosity grade does Kubota recommend for use when the temps fall below 15F?

Hint - it ain't 15W40 because as Ralph keeps pointing out that is getting too thick to crank and pump reliably.

Dan

 

[Mossy dell]

I believe it's 10w30 in my manual.