Something wrong with my backhoe controls??

[OrangePower]

When I first got the tractor and started using the backhoe, it was feathering the controls so slow it would take me about 30 seconds to send the arm out and scrape forward to get a full bucket of dirt, or, basically, slower than molasses. I spend 2 days doing that and I have to say I got pretty good. Now I want to go a LOT faster, but, there seems to be no finesse in the controls at a faster speed. Its like the circuits are either on or off under normal operation unless I am using 2 circuits at the same time. Then there is enough bleed off to keep from jerking the heck out of the tractor with the payoff(?) of slow, but smooth operation.

Example: Boom by itself shakes the tractor, no play in the lever on/off. Timed right, start boom and dipper together, then drop off the dipper and go full bore on the boom, smooth and fine. Visea versa mix n match to your hearts content, just dont go for one control at a time or you jerk yourself to death.

I know what you all are saying "its a fine line", you will learn. No no no, lol. At normal (human) operating speeds, there is no line, your going way to fast when you get in that "fine line" spot then its instantly off. There has got to be more slow speed area to work in before the circuit is off. If I do it like when I first got the tractor, its like walking through a room with a book on your head. Yea, can be done, but, too slow to really be productive.

Normal for a BX? After market valve that addresses this?

 

[85Hokie]

OP - what machine? BX25? BX23s?

There should be NO shaking of the tractor .........

Possible for you to shoot a video while doing these movements?

Any slop in the controls?

 

[OrangePower]

OP - what machine? BX25? BX23s?

There should be NO shaking of the tractor .........

Possible for you to shoot a video while doing these movements?

Any slop in the controls?

Hi, sorry, its a 2021 BX23s w 24 hours on it. Reason the tractor shakes is because there is no gradual activation of the boom or dipper. Its like the hydro valve circuit is either full on or full off when you touch the controls. It "seems" like everything is tight from the control handles to the valves. I have seen some video's where the bolts loosen up on the control rods, but, it feels tight to me. Maybe I should pull the lever/rod/valve cover and double check?

Edit: You can get gradual activation but you have to go really really reeeeeeally slow!!

 

[Fordtech86]

Just going by the original post, you say you just got it, took it slow (low rpm?) then wanted to go faster (high rpm?) after comfortable. It will react differently. I don’t have the specific machine in question, but maybe sounds normal

 

[OrangePower]

Hi. Fordtech86, when I say slow to fast, I am talking about my human reflexes. I keep rpms the same, around 2300 to 2500 for backhoe use since I got her.

Example, if you push forward on the boom stick, lets say you break that total movement up into 10 steps/increments. steps/increments 1 to 2 should be a slow circuit (depending on machinery) and then full flow in that circuit from 3 to 10. Maybe there should be, is, a tapered flow from 1-3 on some machines from 1-3 then goes into full flow mode? All I know is it seems there is maybe only 1 increment before a full on circuit flow. "I" never noticed it before because I was going soooo slow, you just would not know, and it jerks the tractor when I try to adjust because I just end up shutting off the circuit too fast, no matter what i do to try to transition from full forward back to the stop position.

Kind of hard to explain.

 

[leveraddict]

Crank up those RPM's!

 

[NCL4701]

I’m not a backhoe expert. To a large degree, open center tractor hydraulics on CUTS and SCUTS is what it is, backhoe or not, thus a suggestion…

Adjust engine RPM to adjust hydraulic control sensitivity. Lower engine RPM = lower sensitivity. Maybe think of it as the hydraulic speed control.

The reason (if you’re still reading) is hydraulic pumps on these tractors are fixed displacement pumps so the pressure remains the same regardless of pump RPM; volume is variable directly related to RPM. If the hydraulics are too sensitive, jerking the tractor, hard to control with sufficient finesse; reduce engine RPM. If you want the hydraulics to move faster, increase engine RPM.

Try knocking the engine RPM down to 1800 or a bit less. See if that smooths it out. Then mess with it until you find a flow rate that’s the right balance of speed and precision for whatever you’re doing.

Same principle applies for loader, 3 point, and anything else hydraulic.

 

[SAITCHO]

I have a B26TLB and when I first started to use the backhoe it was very jerky. The key to become smooth is experience. What I found is to always start another movement before stopping the previous one especially when you swing the backhoe.

 

[85Hokie]

I have a B26TLB and when I first started to use the backhoe it was very jerky. The key to become smooth is experience. What I found is to always start another movement before stopping the previous one especially when you swing the backhoe.

This is true too!

The only movement that I must concentrate on is the "swing" - that can be jerky and dangerous. I am always aware of where people are or trees or even other things I don't want to smack with the the hoe.
Never had any jerky movements with dipper/boom or bucket, but the abitiy to swing the boom is a definate feather - and there is a good reason for that too. The hydraulic cylinder is mounted on a very short throw, so ANY movement will create a large degree of swing, plus once all that weight of the hoe is moving left to right it is hard to stop that movement without a very light touch on the stick.

 

[Henro]

Hi. Fordtech86, when I say slow to fast, I am talking about my human reflexes. I keep rpms the same, around 2300 to 2500 for backhoe use since I got her.

My take on what the OP is saying, is that he can get good control of the backhoe functions if he only moves the control levers somewhat slightly, but if he moves them more than that it is like there is an on/off switch and things take off so quick he cannot control the movement.

I will need to try the backhoe on my son in law's BX23S sometime...

My backhoe has a PTO driven hydraulic pump, so I am not familiar with backhoes that use the tractor hydraulics, but someone in a previous post mentioned operation with tractor hydraulics mimics what I have experienced.

On the old miniex that I bought, if I run the RPMs high, I get jerky operation. My guess is that the OP needs to lower engine RPMs, as someone mentioned above.

I would suggest that the OP try running at a much lower RPM and see the difference it makes in the control lever action. Then increase RPM to the point you get the speed you want with the control you want.

Do try this and report back.

Question to other BX23S owners: When using your backhoe what engine RPM do you run at normally?

 

[OrangePower]

Adjust engine RPM to adjust hydraulic control sensitivity. Lower engine RPM = lower sensitivity. Maybe think of it as the hydraulic speed control.

When I first had the tractor with 1 hour on her, I did have the RPMs around 2100 to go easy on her. First thing I did was play with the backhoe, slowly. I listened closely to the tractor rpm's and pump whine as I used the backhoe to make sure she wasnt struggling, which she wasnt, so 18 hours of play later I went. After 3 days and 24 hours of playing with the backhoe and feeling really good about my skills, I knew it was time to stick her up to around 2500rpms and go to work. Well, its NOT working, lol.

My take on what the OP is saying, is that he can get good control of the backhoe functions if he only moves the control levers somewhat slightly, but if he moves them more than that it is like there is an on/off switch and things take off so quick he cannot control the movement.


I would suggest that the OP try running at a much lower RPM and see the difference it makes in the control lever action. Then increase RPM to the point you get the speed you want with the control you want.

Do try this and report back.

Question to other BX23S owners: When using your backhoe what engine RPM do you run at normally?

Thats exactly what I am saying it is like.

I will give it another shot of going slow this weekend when I have a little more time to play and report back.

 

[Henro]

When I first had the tractor with 1 hour on her, I did have the RPMs around 2100 to go easy on her. First thing I did was play with the backhoe, slowly. I listened closely to the tractor rpm's and pump whine as I used the backhoe to make sure she wasnt struggling, which she wasnt, so 18 hours of play later I went. After 3 days and 24 hours of playing with the backhoe and feeling really good about my skills, I knew it was time to stick her up to around 2500rpms and go to work. Well, its NOT working, lol.



Thats exactly what I am saying it is like.

I will give it another shot of going slow this weekend when I have a little more time to play and report back.

Just an after thought, but with my tractor backhoe, I usually run somewhere between 1500 and 1800 RPM. More than that movement is difficult to control. Amount of pull is independent of speed, because it is set by the hydraulic system pressure relief valve.

 

[Freeheeler]

I have a BH77, but the hydraulic principles are the same. Fast rpm, jerky response but fast, slow rpm, smooth slow operation. I've found the sweet spot for mine is around 1,800 or so, but if I'm trying to do intricate work (softly exposing a pipe for instance) I slow it down to around 1,500. Same applies to loader or fork work.

 

[OrangePower]

I kind of figured as such about engine speed and hydraulic fluid delivery. I thought 2500 ish was the spot you should be working in to be at the point of proper speed and comfort. Thats why I am wondering if something is wrong. I would think anything slower and its a waste of a backhoe/time. I know its the lowest end backhoe but I would have thought the Japanese guys would have ironed out the hydraulics to be smooth at that RPM, by now. I mean, no tapered oil bleed/valve holes to cushion the high speed slow down??

Getting REAL curious now as to what engine speed gets me what results!!

 

[Henro]

I kind of figured as such about engine speed and hydraulic fluid delivery. I thought 2500 ish was the spot you should be working in to be at the point of proper speed and comfort. Thats why I am wondering if something is wrong. I would think anything slower and its a waste of a backhoe/time. I know its the lowest end backhoe but I would have thought the Japanese guys would have ironed out the hydraulics to be smooth at that RPM, by now. I mean, no tapered oil bleed/valve holes to cushion the high speed slow down??

Getting REAL curious now as to what engine speed gets me what results!!

Actually, when you were feathering the valves to get smooth operation you were wasting time too. You were limiting flow. BUT you got smooth operation.

Reduce engine RPM. Open the control valves further. See what the backhoe movement speed is. Increase RPMs to get more backhoe speed up to the point where you have difficulty keeping smooth operation. You will then know what speed to run the engine.

Seems simple to me...using my personal experience as a reference.

I think you are over thinking this.

 

[OrangePower]

" Actually, when you were feathering the valves to get smooth operation you were wasting time too. "
True, but, there is a diff between my novice move of feather from my 0-10 scale, then (at least thinking) I know the controls and trying to feather from 0-3 and then blasting it out from 3.1-10 (on the 0-10 scale example).

Honestly, I dont know what to think, never ran a backhoe before, much less a backhoe on multiple pieces of equipment to see how they ALL operate the same/diff.

I still think you should be able to blast the machine at 20 bazillion rpm and have some kind of feathering capability in the 0-3 range, of some kind. Your gonna tell me no one thought of that by the 21st century and everyone just said "meh, thats the way it is"? If thats the case, wouldnt we all still be sh**ng in the woods?

 

[85Hokie]

Orange - the part that bothers me is not so much the feathering but rather the " jerking the heck out of the tractor "

that seems to not be a part of a human error. Again when I grip it and rip it to swing, I can make the tractor dance a bit.

But if I am booming out or dippersticking up or down, I have never had a problem with jerkiness - no matter WHAT rpms I am operating.

One thing is for sure - low rpms will get slower movement - the force remains the same! PSI is always there up from idle where as flow is directly proportional to engine RPMS.

 

[GibbyESS9]

I have a 2020 BX23s. I have only 30 hours on it but have used the backhoe a lot with stumps and trenching on my vacation property. I would say at any rpm my controls are smooth. Maybe a video at slower rpm and higher for us to see.
I have rented the same machine several times before I bought mine and they were always smooth to operate. I do agree that the boom side to side can be jerky at higher rpm.

 

[Henro]

" Actually, when you were feathering the valves to get smooth operation you were wasting time too. "
True, but, there is a diff between my novice move of feather from my 0-10 scale, then (at least thinking) I know the controls and trying to feather from 0-3 and then blasting it out from 3.1-10 (on the 0-10 scale example).

Honestly, I dont know what to think, never ran a backhoe before, much less a backhoe on multiple pieces of equipment to see how they ALL operate the same/diff.

I still think you should be able to blast the machine at 20 bazillion rpm and have some kind of feathering capability in the 0-3 range, of some kind. Your gonna tell me no one thought of that by the 21st century and everyone just said "meh, thats the way it is"? If thats the case, wouldnt we all still be sh**ng in the woods?

I asked my son in law what speed he runs his BX23S when using the backhoe, and he said 2500 to 3000 RPM.

So MAYBE YOU DO have an issue...

All I can say is that with my old mini ex it also becomes jerky at higher engine RPMs.

At this point I would not place a bet on what your issue is, one way or another.

Edit: Any chance your dealer has a BX23S on the lot that you could operate for comparison purposes? A minute would be enough time probably...

 

[OrangePower]

All I know is I was trying to pick up a piece of wood with the bucket n claw, at around 2400 rpms and trying to feather my butt off to get the bucket to go 6" smoothly on the stump and stop smoothly was a nightmare, and, I was applying my slower than molassis novice moves. you know, trying to an inch every 3 seconds slow, lol. Just didnt seem like there was any point other than go or stop. Had to work the HECK out of it to find that "just moving" point.

Gonna play with it this weekend. May have to go out to the dealer and check their tractors out for a test drive now I am comfortable with them, and since they had about 4 of the 23s on the lot when I got mine. Before, I was scared to even test drive one I was so green. I didnt want to crash into a building or swing a backhoe arm into something. Done that a few times. Tired of being embarrased, lol.