Traded my L2501 HST for a Kioti DK4210SE

[jimh406]

So, Jim, let's say a close friend to you was enamored with this same Kioti tractor.

Friends don’t let friends buy Kioti tractors. Joking … really.

Seriously though, it’s you who started a thread in a Kubota forum to try to convince Kubota owners to buy a Kioti. I know people who bought Kiotis. Most make excuses for why they bought them. Most of us are glad you like your tractor.

I personally would rather have an MX than your tractor. As you call it, you are enamored with your Kioti. If I told you which model you should buy, I’m sure you’d give me some reason why not.

 

[nota4re]

Seriously though, it’s you who started a thread in a Kubota forum to try to convince Kubota owners to buy a Kioti.

You ALWAYS seem to know what others are thinking. Is that a gift?

The reality is that is NOT the reason I started the thread. I didn't think ANY Kubota owners would rush out and buy a Kioti. Nor do I think that ANYONE who bought a Kubota made a poor decision. My point is only this... I had a Kubota model X. My needs changed/evolved and I assembled some new criteria. For you, there's little doubt that you would have shopped exclusively in the Kubota brand to meet those new requirements. There's nothing particularly wrong with that. You're a Kubota fan, that's great.

However other people may not be so one-sided as you - and they may also shop some other brands or cross-shop. In 2009, I bought a Chevy 2500 HD Diesel pick-up. Loved that thing. In 2018, I was ready for a new truck - and despite I really liked my Chevy, I cross-shopped to both RAM and Ford. I ended up buying a Ford F350 Platinum. I love the truck and the decision I made. Do I think Chevy's are bad? Nope. Do I think people that buy Chevy's are stupid? Nope. I think I made the best decision for my needs. Maybe you like one brand of truck and would never switch to another. Good for you. But maybe other folks would prefer to know what else may be out there.

You are very quick to judge my "bad decision" to buy the Kioti model I did, yet your either unwilling or unable to come up with the Kubota I should have purchased. Besides having a Kubota name and orange paint, why do you think the MX is a better choice?

 

[Jchonline]

You ALWAYS seem to know what others are thinking. Is that a gift?

The reality is that is NOT the reason I started the thread. I didn't think ANY Kubota owners would rush out and buy a Kioti. Nor do I think that ANYONE who bought a Kubota made a poor decision. My point is only this... I had a Kubota model X. My needs changed/evolved and I assembled some new criteria. For you, there's little doubt that you would have shopped exclusively in the Kubota brand to meet those new requirements. There's nothing particularly wrong with that. You're a Kubota fan, that's great.

However other people may not be so one-sided as you - and they may also shop some other brands or cross-shop. In 2009, I bought a Chevy 2500 HD Diesel pick-up. Loved that thing. In 2018, I was ready for a new truck - and despite I really liked my Chevy, I cross-shopped to both RAM and Ford. I ended up buying a Ford F350 Platinum. I love the truck and the decision I made. Do I think Chevy's are bad? Nope. Do I think people that buy Chevy's are stupid? Nope. I think I made the best decision for my needs. Maybe you like one brand of truck and would never switch to another. Good for you. But maybe other folks would prefer to know what else may be out there.

You are very quick to judge my "bad decision" to buy the Kioti model I did, yet your either unwilling or unable to come up with the Kubota I should have purchased. Besides having a Kubota name and orange paint, why do you think the MX is a better choice?

Love my F250! Enjoy your Kioti I do hope it is a great machine for you.

 

[jimh406]

You are very quick to judge my "bad decision" to buy the Kioti model

Go back and read my first post on this thread. Continue reading and see when this thread changed. Hint: it wasn’t because of what I wanted you to do or what I said about whether your decision was bad or not. You are the one that hijacked your own thread. Ok, if you want to do that, but that responsibility is all on you.

 

[nota4re]

it’s you who started a thread in a Kubota forum to try to convince Kubota owners to buy a Kioti.

I was reacting to you assertion of knowing why someone did something. YOU don't know why I posted the thread.

But let's look objectively at your MX recommendation as a viable alternative to the decision I made.

The specs are closer than what I would have thought. The MX5400 is definitely a beast! It has several advantages over the Kioti DK4210. First (and not enumerated in the quick comparison spreadsheet) is that the MX uses a 4-cylinder 2400 cc diesel engine compared to the 3-cylinder 1800cc engine in the Kioti. The MX engine is also significantly more powerful with 55HP compared to the 40 in the Kioti. (The MX also makes use of a turbocharger where the DK42 does not - but the larger HP versions of the DK all use a turbocharger but stay with the 3-cylinder 1800cc engine.) In summary, the MX has a rather significant power advantage.

Weights of the machines are actually relatively similar. The Kioti does have an advantage (albeit small) in lift capacity - both at the loader and the 3-pt.

Each tractor has similar features - AC, Heat, suspension seat, stereo-ready, windshield wiper, electric PTO engagement, etc. Both have front work lights although the Kioti has rears as well - but these are optional on the MX.

All-in-all, they are similar tractors. One of the larger disparities is price - the "approximate street price" being about $10K more on the MX compared to the DK42. Now, for someone shopping for the MX's kind of HP, they would most likely be looking at the DK55 or DK60 which will be priced more closely to the MX.

So, while I think the MX is a fine tractor and has some worthy advantages (most notably HP and engine size), I just couldn't justify spending another $10K (25-30%) more for my needs. If Kubota were to make a "MX4200" at a price that was $2-3K more than the Kioti, it would also be compelling (for me).

 

[PaulL]

I feel like this thread has run its course, not much new information, just a lot of noise.

My impression is that, like any brand, Kioti and Kubota both have a set of frame sizes, and attachments (loader, 3ph) that go with that frame size. They then put different engines in that frame.

The MX and DK frame size look to be similar, and have similar capacities on the attachments. However, Kioti use that frame down to a smaller engine than Kubota do - so you can get a DK frame with a 40hp engine, Kubota start at 55hp in the MX. So yeah, there's a price difference.

I also note that Kubota USA claim you can buy an MX5400 for $22,885, and you get 60 months interest free. https://www.kubotausa.com/products/tractors/utility/mx-series I'm not sure what you're adding to get to a $44K price, but it can't be only a loader, probably not only a cab and loader either.

This page says a DK4210SE is $29K (https://tractorsinfo.com/kioti-dk4210se-hc/), this page says with a cab and loader it's $35K (https://www.orchardhillsales.net/in...ion-hydraulics-belchertown-ma-01007-10000031i). Seems similar in price to me, as always depending on options and dealer specific deals.

I'll also note we talked about the MX on the first page of this thread, on the 19th June or thereabouts. At that time you had a spreadsheet very similar to what you posted above, but at that time you had the realistic price of the MX5400 as being $35K, but for some reason compared it to the DK4710SE, and only compared the Grand L to the DK4210SE (despite the Grand L being basically the same price as the MX). Based on your own comparison at that time you had the DK4210SE at $29K (not sure how you get to that price with cab and loader), and the MX at $35K. I'd personally pay the $6K more to have 14hp more and to have a Kubota, and if cash was a problem I'd finance at 0% for 60 months. But that's just me. Not sure what has changed in pricing or your analysis in the last month and a half, but there's some element of moving goal posts there.

Bottom line, like any manufacturers, the tractors don't overlap exactly. I always say that at the low end with the Kubota BX and B, and the JD 1025. The JD sits between the two - so people will be all "the JD has better specs than the BX", my usual answer is that if you want to lift more than a BX, you can buy a B2301 for about the same price, and it's all over the JD. And people will say "that's not fair". It's never fair - the tractors aren't exactly aligned. If you want a tractor between a BX and B in size (which is a really specific size requirement...) then the JD is a great machine. If you want a Kubota, then you either want a really small machine (BX), or you want a decent set of capacities and don't mind a bit larger machine (B). However, if you want an auto-attaching mower deck that works reliably, then you want a JD.

So, if you're someone who cares about lift capacity, you compare an L60 series to a DK, and you say "the DK lifts more and weighs a lot more." You compare the MX to the DK, and you say "the MX has a lot more HP." So which is the fair comparison? No real answer to that. If you'd particularly wanted a Kubota there'd have been a Kubota that suited - there are so many models there'll be one that does what you want. Maybe the pricing is a bit different, maybe the 0% finance isn't useful to you, nothing ever matches exactly. So if you're not fussy on brand, then sure, for your exact use the Kioti makes sense. And, I think as I said at the start, one big difference I think I recall is that the Kioti has quite a bit bigger cab, which means you can put a kid in the cab with you if you want, whereas I think the Kubota you can't. But don't recall if that was the DK or another model.

Anyway, fine for you that you bought a Kioti, and excellent that you're happy. Nothing worse than buying something expensive and having buyer's remorse. But also don't be surprised that other people have different criteria than you, nor be surprised that when you post about your Kioti on a Kubota forum that people will say "there's a Kubota that'd do that." When you say "no there's not" there's going to be someone who owns an MX, or owns a Grand L, and they don't want to have buyer's remorse either. So they're going to say "no, my MX is awesome." Or "no, my Grand L is awesome." And it probably is. For them.

Anyway, done with this thread, I think it should be locked or closed or something, it's just noise right now.

 

[airbiscuit]

That's a pretty good post, but if you're going to move up from a BX/Deere 1025 to a Kubota B2301, you should really compare it to a Deere 2xxx series.

I understand brand loyalty. People get pretty wound up when anyone dares to question which brand is best. We all spent $$$$ for our CUTs after all. It's kind of the old "My dad can beat up your dad".

I have owned 3 New Hollands, 1 John Deere, 1 Kubota and 1 Shibaura grey market tractor (not counting a John Deere B and a Farmall H). Truth be told, the best tractor per dollar was the Shibaura because it was so darned cheap ($2,500). In my opinion, My 34hp new Holland was more refined than my 32hp Kubota and it was 2 years older. My current 40hp New Holland is perfect for my needs.

That said, have I loved every CUT I've ever owned? Absolutely!! Do I think Kubota makes a good tractor? Yep? Do I think Kioti makes a good tractor? Yep. To be honest, if I were buying a new CUT now, I'm not sure what brand it would be, I do know that I would be looking at Kioti, Yanmar, Kubota, and Deere.

I don't know anyone who is sitting on a CUT of any color who doesn't have a smile on their face.

 

[PaulL]

That's a pretty good post, but if you're going to move up from a BX/Deere 1025 to a Kubota B2301, you should really compare it to a Deere 2xxx series.

That's my point. The Deere 2xxx series is a bit bigger than the B series. So really you'd compare that to the LX. But actually, the LX is a bit bigger than a Deere 2xxx. So you'd compare to the Deere 3xxx series. They don't overlap exactly. So getting excited that "this spec on the Deere is better than the Kubota" or vice versa is a bit pointless - because both brands have a model just a tiny bit larger that will one up the other, and you can go on stepping up one by one until you bring home an MX to mow your lawn. You have to decide what capacity you actually need (as opposed to "this one is bigger than that one"), and you have to look at the features, sit on the tractor, and work out what suits you.

I don't know anyone who is sitting on a CUT of any color who doesn't have a smile on their face.

100%. The usual comparison to a CUT is a shovel and wheel barrow, and all CUTs are better than a shovel and wheel barrow. Unless you're using it to make money, or have a very specific requirement to lift a specific thing, or do a specific task, they'll all work. Buy the colour you like, buy the dealer you like, buy the one that feels comfortable, or matches your neighbour, or is the opposite of your neighbour, whatever floats your boat. For some people there's a very specific feature they need - an auto attaching mower deck, an easy attach loader, small turn radius, reach over the sides of their truck, split brakes, position control 3ph, 3 speed transmission. People make decisions for lots of reasons.

Personally, when I moved from my BX to my B, I only shopped Kubota. My sister in law has a Massey, I didn't like it. I don't like green just on principle (no reason needed nor given), in that size range I didn't really like the look of the Kioti. I like Kubota, I bought a Kubota, it's my money and I don't have to justify that to anyone.

 

[mcmxi]

But let's look objectively at your MX recommendation as a viable alternative to the decision I made.

View attachment 63811

The gross hp of the MX5400 HST 4WD is 57.0 hp not 55.5 hp and the MX has a Cat II rear end compared to the CAT I on the Kioti. All that aside, I would definitely consider the larger displacement engine, turbo charger and additional hp worth the extra cost.

When you compare the weights with the cab, FEL and bucket, the actual difference is about 700lb in favor of the MX. I do find the published lift capacity of Kioti tractors to be interesting. The MX has 3.5" more maximum lift height with the LA1065 compared to the KL5521 and 200lb less capacity at that lift height, but since I have the LA1065 FEL I have to wonder how Kioti does it ... assuming the published numbers are accurate.

As I stated earlier, you can't price out a Kioti tractor on their website which is utter BS, but it's easy to do it for a Kubota. So you're comparing a published price at full MSRP compared to a price quoted by a Kioti dealer or similar that may or may not have incentives in it. That lack of transparency is very troubling to me.

 

[airbiscuit]

I think PaulL and I are in violent agreement

 

[PaulL]

I think PaulL and I are in violent agreement

Yes, it's 6pm here, and I do have a beer. A rather nice hazy pale ale. Local NZ, so not useful information for you. Behemoth Something Hazy. https://www.behemothbrewing.co.nz/beer/something-hazy

 

[nota4re]

I also note that Kubota USA claim you can buy an MX5400 for $22,885, and you get 60 months interest free. https://www.kubotausa.com/products/tractors/utility/mx-series I'm not sure what you're adding to get to a $44K price, but it can't be only a loader, probably not only a cab and loader either.

This page says a DK4210SE is $29K (https://tractorsinfo.com/kioti-dk4210se-hc/), this page says with a cab and loader it's $35K (https://www.orchardhillsales.net/in...ion-hydraulics-belchertown-ma-01007-10000031i). Seems similar in price to me, as always depending on options and dealer specific deals.

I agree with several that this thread has run its course -nothing new here and time to move on.

With respect to the "street prices" I cited, I believe the price were very close to what each tractor could be purchased for. The MX price of $22,885 is sans loader and cab and a casual look at some of the dealer sites that have this unit is stock show it at ~$44k. Same for the Kioti - dealer sites that have the unit - at about $34K. So apples to apples about a $10K difference.

You DO get differences in the Kubota for that extra price. Bigger displacement, turbo, more HP, Kubota name/reliability. Can't fault someone who elects to pay that difference to get those differentiators. In my case (different buying criteria), I'm moving up from a L2501 - seeking only a slightly bigger frame and increased lifting capacity. Cab with AC and heat are cool luxuries. So, for a buyer like me, the Kioti checks all of the boxes (42HP is already a nice upgrade from the L2501's 25HP) and I get the larger frame, cab, and lifting capacity. In closing my participation in this thread - this is really the full circle point that many seem to miss. Buyer A selects the MX because it fits his needs and Buyer B selects the DK because it fits their needs. It doesn't mean that one tractor is a better value than another, nor does it mean the one buyer is smarter than another. It's nice to have alternatives. If Kubota would have had a lower-priced and lower HP MX, I probably would have purchased that. I didn't need to spend the extra $10K on more HP capacity which I don't think I'll need.

 

[Motronic]

You ALWAYS seem to know what others are thinking. Is that a gift?

The reality is that is NOT the reason I started the thread.

It seems you started the thread because you are arrogant and wanted to start an internet slap fight. This thread has all the hallmarks of it, right down to your moaning about how "FIRST you all said THIS and NOW you all say THAT" as if you're reading responses from a single person with a unified opinion. Great "defense" there, and an even better way to get more attention. And you do seem to want that, even if it's negative attention.

The only reason you're getting attention is because you seem to get to upset about the responses. So I guess everyone is getting something out of this.

Go on an give us a good meltdown. We've all earned it spending time reading your flimsy "facts" (incorrect and unpopular opinions) and justifications (I swear, it wasn't because it was cheaper! Because I can pay CASH.).

 

[NHSleddog]

.... So apples to apples about a $10K difference....

Because better stuff costs more. Objects of higher value cost more. Higher quality - costs more.

You listed a lot of stuff (dealers, parts, resources, resale etc.) but never assigned them any value. The Kubotas cost more because they are worth more. Doesn't matter who you are, the Kubota is worth more.

What limited experience I have with Kioti, if it, and the Kubota was the only choice, I'd pay 20K more for the Kubota without pause because it is worth more. Right about now my BIL wishes he purchased the higher quality unit unfortunately he is stuck with his Kioti.

 

[NCL4701]

I keep getting notices on this thread I think because I posted something on it back so long ago I forgot what it was. Have pretty much ignored it for a while but just now read most of it. I’m just amazed it’s still going. Looks like anything productive ended long ago. Whoever it was that called it an internet slap fight was on point. Apparently some enjoy that sort of thing. Goodness…

Glad the OP is happy with his new Kioti that replaced the Kubota that was undersized for the tasks he had for it from day one. Hope it has many years of trouble free service.

We have a Ford and International in the stable as well. I don’t say much about them here because this a KUBOTA forum.

 

[nota4re]

Since you guys seem to miss me over here in this thread... where I thought we had agreed that this discussion had LONG passed the point of diminishing returns, I thought I'd give a brief update on the Kioti.

Too many things going on with life right now and I'm not getting as much time on the tractor as I want. Mostly have been using it with the box scraper - controlling weeds and leveling an area where we plan to put some storage building(s) in the future. I have a large (skid steer) rock bucket on it. Box scraping on our land invariably turns up a lot of large boulders. I typically will get these all herded together and then scoop them up with the rock bucket. The tractor has been running without any issues. The ice cold AC has really helped on these hot days. As this model Kioti comes with rear ports, it was simple (and inexpensive) to add a hyd top link. That really helps with controlling the box scraper - though I am largely still a rookie in operating it. I DO like the separate forward/back pedals and the increased roominess of the floorboard space. Operation of the hydraulics - both the loader and the 3-point are more sensitive than the Kubota which was easier to operate more smoothly. I'm hoping that with some additional time it will become more Kubota-like. Still very happy with my decision. I just don't think that Kubota has anything competitive to offer at this price/performance point. Here's a link to the tractor just like mine if anyone was curious about the specs or cost. Kioti DK4210SE

 

[jimh406]

Since you guys seem to miss me over here in this thread...

How much does Kioti pay you for each view? How many views do you have on Green Tractor Talks?

 

[mcmxi]

How much does Kioti pay you for each view? How many views do you have on Green Tractor Talks?

No one on the Kioti forum that @nota4re frequents is interested in his tractor.

I could understand the original post talking about how his Kubota wasn't ideal for his desired uses, but coming back to this thread weeks later to provide an update about the Kioti on a Kubuta forum is pathological. I think "troll" is the common term these days for this sort of behavior. He gets a reaction and gets off on that.

 

[Rdrcr]

I just don't think that Kubota has anything competitive to offer at this price/performance point. Here's a link to the tractor just like mine if anyone was curious about the specs or cost.

I’m happy you’re still enjoying the Kioti, they’re a fine tractor and good value.
My boss has been enjoying her trouble free Kioti for over 7 years now.

However, your final point is simply inaccurate and borderline ignorant. While not all specs are equal, Kubota, JD, Yanmar and other tractor manufacturers have comparable tractors to yours for equal or less money. Pricing depends on the dealer and your area.
Perhaps Kioti is cheaper where you are, but, they sure ain’t cheaper in my market. Kioti was just as expensive as Kubota, model for model…even with dealer discounts.
I just couldn’t justify paying Kubota money for a Kioti.

In the end, they’re both orange and if you have the same experience as my boss, you’ll beenjoying your tractor for years to come!

Mike

 

[nota4re]

could understand the original post talking about how his Kubota wasn't ideal for his desired uses, but coming back to this thread weeks later to provide an update about the Kioti on a Kubuta forum is pathological. I think "troll" is the common term these days for this sort of behavior. He gets a reaction and gets off on that.

I get off on how close-minded and immature you are. I had not posted in this thread in a month - yet it moves forward - mostly with more Kubota owners with twisted panties in their crack. Isn't this the Orange Tractor forum? My tractor is orange. Let's watch all of the responses... you guys just HAVE to have the last word. Just too predictable.