Traded my L2501 HST for a Kioti DK4210SE

[nota4re]

I responded on that thread, but I think the truth is a Kioti is not apples to apples because the Kubota has a much better reputation. Does it matter for you … that’s up to you until you want to resell/trade.

Kubota DOES indeed have a good, well-deserved reputation. You have no argument from me on that. Also, I would agree that the reputation of Kubota is better/more well known than Kioti. That said, I think if you are objective (as I think I was) and you look at a lot of recent evaluations and customer feedback reviews, you will see that the Kioti is a very serious contender. They are investing a LOT in this North American market. Many aspects - such as the number and quality of dealerships will take time to establish and thus Kubota will continue to have buyer advantages where these metrics are important.

But ultimately it comes down to features. @nota4re needed lift capacity in particular, and he's pointed out that the L class machines are a bit down on loader capacity compared to the Kioti. I'm not sure how much of that is measurement differences v's real life differences, but it was meaningful for him.

The loader lift capacities are not in the same league. 1131lbs versus 2471lbs. These are both measured at the pins. A "bit down" is an understatement. Even comparing the cost/size comparable Kioti CK to the Kubota L-series, you have 1131lbs versus 1835lbs - more than 60% better. In my spreadsheet, I also included Hydraulic gpm. This is an important stat in tractor comparisons and will give you an clear indication of the power of the machines. Likely, I am influenced too much by my own tractor requirements but if lift capacity is your thing, I believe the Kubota is underwhelming in this area - by a LOT.

 

[Rdrcr]

I’ve operated both the Kubota and Kioti. In preparation for every purchase, I shop both. In my area a comparable Kioti is the same price as Kubota (I understand pricing is different in other areas).
Dollar for dollar I prefer the Kubota. I find the quality of components, overall design, parts support, and future resale superior (in my area).

That said, I can understand why some folks would prefer the Kioti considering FEL capacity and initial price, assuming it substantially cheaper than Kubota.

Mike

 

[Jchonline]

Kubota DOES indeed have a good, well-deserved reputation. You have no argument from me on that. Also, I would agree that the reputation of Kubota is better/more well known than Kioti. That said, I think if you are objective (as I think I was) and you look at a lot of recent evaluations and customer feedback reviews, you will see that the Kioti is a very serious contender. They are investing a LOT in this North American market. Many aspects - such as the number and quality of dealerships will take time to establish and thus Kubota will continue to have buyer advantages where these metrics are important.



The loader lift capacities are not in the same league. 1131lbs versus 2471lbs. These are both measured at the pins. A "bit down" is an understatement. Even comparing the cost/size comparable Kioti CK to the Kubota L-series, you have 1131lbs versus 1835lbs - more than 60% better. In my spreadsheet, I also included Hydraulic gpm. This is an important stat in tractor comparisons and will give you an clear indication of the power of the machines. Likely, I am influenced too much by my own tractor requirements but if lift capacity is your thing, I believe the Kubota is underwhelming in this area - by a LOT.

Lift is usually matched to the machine with Kubota. They don't allow the FELs to lift unsafe loads. L2501 weights 2400 ish lbs. DK4210 weights 4000...these aren't even in the same class of machine. Sorry but they cannot be compared.

The CK4010 HST weighs 2900....which is quite a bit more that 2400. That said if you think it is safe to lift 1800 lbs on a 2900lb machine....well be my guest! I lift a ton all the time with mine, backhoe on and just over 11000 lbs and you can still feel it. I can't imagine what it would be like on one that weighed 2900. For my terrain very very unsafe, even with decent ballast.

 

[sdk1968]

^^ my CK4010SE HST weighs about 4,880lbs....

base tractor is 2,921lbs
FEl is 959lbs
loaded rear tires 350lbs
counter weight 650lbs
4,880lbs

thats still not counting everything else i carry on there... chains, winch & so on..

lifting 2,000lbs at working heights or moving it around has never been an issue.

would i try that sitting sideways on my hillside? eh... NO. only dummies do that kind of stuff.

 

[NCL4701]

Lift is usually matched to the machine with Kubota. They don't allow the FELs to lift unsafe loads. L2501 weights 2400 ish lbs. DK4210 weights 4000...these aren't even in the same class of machine. Sorry but they cannot be compared.

The CK4010 HST weighs 2900....which is quite a bit more that 2400. That said if you think it is safe to lift 1800 lbs on a 2900lb machine....well be my guest! I lift a ton all the time with mine, backhoe on and just over 11000 lbs and you can still feel it. I can't imagine what it would be like on one that weighed 2900. For my terrain very very unsafe, even with decent ballast.

I’d agree with that for the L4701. With loaded R4’s and 600lb on the 3 point, the loader will lift what the tractor will hold, sometimes a tad more. If I increased the pressure to increase loader performance it would be of little practical use. I suppose maybe I could put wheel weights and/or more weight on the 3 point but in a relatively “normal” configuration the tractor and loader are well matched. I don’t know what the load capacity of the front axle is. Based on the level of engineering present on the rest of the machine, I’d be concerned about it if I started tweaking more performance from the loader as I think it reasonable to assume the front axle capacity is also matched to loader capacity.

Don’t have anything against Kioti or Ram 1/2 tons, but I drive a Kubota and a Tundra. I ain’t throwing rocks and also ain’t apologizing or feeling bad about it.

 

[skeets]

All I know is when you get rid of a big K you will in most cases get most of you original out lay,,, the other k not so much

 

[nota4re]

Lift is usually matched to the machine with Kubota. They don't allow the FELs to lift unsafe loads. L2501 weights 2400 ish lbs. DK4210 weights 4000...these aren't even in the same class of machine. Sorry but they cannot be compared.

I agree with you that the DK4210 is a larger machine and costlier than a L2501 - and it is unfair to compare them. But, you can compare the L3301 with the CK3510SE and again - a large disparity of lift capacity. Further, I agree that as an operator you DO need to be a little smarter about what your doing - because the higher-capacity machines can get you into trouble! When comparing weights, you need to consider tractor weight combined with loader weight and most informed owners (who are working the FEL, anyway) have ballast in the tires and often ballast in the form on an instrument on the 3-pt.

But the "lift capacity" shows up more than in just lifting loads - it can also be very noticeable when using the stock bucket to move sand or rock. When you are at/near the machine's limit, curling and/or lifting the bucket up is limited and it is also annoying/disconcerting to lose your power steering in these "at-limit" scenarios. Doing these same tasks in a higher-limits machine is a night and day difference.

 

[nota4re]

All I know is when you get rid of a big K you will in most cases get most of you original out lay,,, the other k not so much

Kubota DO have very good resale value - one of the factors that made it so easy for me to make the upgrade. We agree on this. As for the Kioti resale - perhaps historically no one has been as good as the Kubota - but maybe not so bad either...

 

[ManBitesDog]

I called Mich Iron & E about a Kioti and the guy wasn't rude, he just wasn't interested. Referred me to other Dealers. Ones I'm not so sure will be around when/if warranty time comes around. And all I said was good morning, do you have a Cx2510 in stock? His website says he does but I didn't bring that up. I don't believe websites for 2 seconds. Even the Kubota ones. They advertise things they don't have without conscience. I'm an hour drive away and I have Ram Cummins, so pulling a trailer isn't a problem for me if he doesn't want to deliver it, I can pull it like it isn't even back there. Didn't even get that far -- Not interested. Go away. That was the message, loud and clear. Didn't want to talk about when, if, maybe.... Nothing. Don't bother me

That's what I run into with a lot of these small fry dealers; apathy. Not ignorance, apathy. They just don't seem to care. I could even tolerate some ignorance if it was attached to some 'I care'. But, nope. Don't care. Leave me alone so I can eat my tuna fish sandwich.

You walk into a Deere Dealer and you get attention. You call them, you get someone to talk to. While the Kubota tractor is, IMO, a much better unite for LESS money, the Dealers are lacking from what I've seen. It's like Amateur Hour with the ones I've had brief dealings with.

I keep telling myself that I'm not marrying these people, I just want to buy a tractor from them. Don't care if I ever see them again.....

Unless I need service and/or parts. And if I can't get their attention when I want to give them $25,000 dollars of my money, what's it going to be like when I need warranty work or a $20 part?

And it's not just now, during the shortage/pandemic/whatev. They were like that before when I interacted with them.

I don't like Deere products, they're overpriced (bigly) and frankly, almost always not as good, but I'll tell you this, their Dealers are much more on the ball.

So if somebody knows a Kubota Dealer in Southern Michigan (between Lansing and Grand Rapids) I'd like to hear their name

 

[NCL4701]

I called Mich Iron & E about a Kioti and the guy wasn't rude, he just wasn't interested. Referred me to other Dealers. Ones I'm not so sure will be around when/if warranty time comes around. And all I said was good morning, do you have a Cx2510 in stock? His website says he does but I didn't bring that up. I don't believe websites for 2 seconds. Even the Kubota ones. They advertise things they don't have without conscience. I'm an hour drive away and I have Ram Cummins, so pulling a trailer isn't a problem for me if he doesn't want to deliver it, I can pull it like it isn't even back there. Didn't even get that far -- Not interested. Go away. That was the message, loud and clear. Didn't want to talk about when, if, maybe.... Nothing. Don't bother me

That's what I run into with a lot of these small fry dealers; apathy. Not ignorance, apathy. They just don't seem to care. I could even tolerate some ignorance if it was attached to some 'I care'. But, nope. Don't care. Leave me alone so I can eat my tuna fish sandwich.

You walk into a Deere Dealer and you get attention. You call them, you get someone to talk to. While the Kubota tractor is, IMO, a much better unite for LESS money, the Dealers are lacking from what I've seen. It's like Amateur Hour with the ones I've had brief dealings with.

I keep telling myself that I'm not marrying these people, I just want to buy a tractor from them. Don't care if I ever see them again.....

Unless I need service and/or parts. And if I can't get their attention when I want to give them $25,000 dollars of my money, what's it going to be like when I need warranty work or a $20 part?

And it's not just now, during the shortage/pandemic/whatev. They were like that before when I interacted with them.

I don't like Deere products, they're overpriced (bigly) and frankly, almost always not as good, but I'll tell you this, their Dealers are much more on the ball.

So if somebody knows a Kubota Dealer in Southern Michigan (between Lansing and Grand Rapids) I'd like to hear their name

Agree dealer competence, longevity, and whether they give a crap or not makes a big difference on sales, service, and parts. That seems to vary quite a bit. In my area, the JD dealer didn’t want to talk to me, much less sell me something pre-pandemic. Kubota dealer is diametric opposite; couldn’t ask for a better dealer for sales, service, or parts. My brother lives just an hour and a half away and has a good relationship with his JD dealer. With the Tier 4, computer controlled, HST, blah, blah I know there’s a good chance I’ll get over my head on something eventually and it’s important to have a competent dealer who is on top of their game regardless of brand.

If you needed a good Kubota dealer in central NC, I’d recommend Riddle Tractor without reservation. I probably couldn’t find southern Michigan with a map and GPS so sorry I’m useless on that point.

 

[Rdrcr]

It does seem that the quality of the dealers vary from location to location. I'm blessed to have some very good dealers in my area. My Kubota dealer is fantastic but, I've also had good experiences with the local Deere, Massey and Kioti dealers here.

Sorry to hear about the issues with your local Kubota dealers and I have the same sentiment towards Deere products.

Mike

 

[forky]

The dealer really makes a difference for sure. I have a Deere dealer one mile away and my Kubota dealer 35 minutes away. I looked at both really close and Deere didn't have a leg to stand on in regards to apples to apples.....Deere actually said those ssqa fel get full of rust and don't really work then.....really? I won't go on and on...but Orange is superior in multiple ways.

 

[airbiscuit]

Kioti is not Kubota - yet. They are an up an comer that makes nice, feature rich tractors. Time for Kubota to hear the footsteps, and refine the L01 series. Not that they're bad tractors, but a little more basic than they need to be - even for an economy model. Eliminate the hump, add telescoping links, pin type stabilizers, wider stance, bigger tires for starters.

 

[mcmxi]

@nota4re, this is a very good thread that you started. I didn't know anything about Kioti a few weeks ago but I started looking closely at them recently and was able to drive an RX7320 yesterday which was revealing. There is no question that Kioti offers an incredible value and possibly a better option for many of us that end up buying a Kubota. I would have really liked to test or at least look at an NX6010 HSTC since that's the most obvious competitor to the MX6000 HSTC that I have coming in soon.

When I compared the MX6000 with a cab to the NX6010 with a cab it confirmed for me that if price is not a concern I'd pick the MX mostly because I prefer a 4 cylinder 2.4L engine putting out 60 hp net over a 3 cylinder 1.8L engine putting out 60 hp gross. I don't know what the NX costs because unlike Kubota's website I'm not able to "build and price" a tractor so I don't know if the NX is $10k to $15k cheaper but it probably is, particularly once you add in all of the desirable options. I think the cab interior of the NX is nicer based on photos but ultimately I feel that I made the right choice with the MX. Kioti is too much of an unknown for me and despite the specs on paper where the NX is superior, mostly in lift capacity, I don't think I'd be in a situation where the difference would be important.

If I were choosing between an M7060 and RX7320 the same problem of engine size shows up. The M has a 3.3L engine compared the 2.4L in the RX which is the same displacement as the MX engine. Other than that the RX checks all of the boxes, and if ever I am able or willing to sell the MX6000 ROPS model and decide that I need or want an M7060 or RX730 I'll be taking another long look at the RX.

I will say that although the Kioti dealership up here is basically one guy in a shed, he's very knowledgeable and extremely nice. I do have a great relationship with the local Kubota dealership so that's definitely a big draw for me, plus they have a proper, full-service facility that I find myself visiting way too much.

 

[mcmxi]

As I referenced, the DK4210SE has a lift capacity to full height of 2,474 lbs. In contrast, the Kubota MX series is 2275 lbs and the L4701 is only 1684 lbs. From a price perspective, maybe the L4701 is closest - but the DK4219SE has 50% more front lift capacity. That is significant. Even if you move up to a Grand L, the specs just do not compare. (The total gpm hydraulic flow in the Grand L is 13.9 gpm compared to 16.5 gpm in the Kioti... resulting in less lift capability.)

I think it should be noted that the MX and L4701 both have 4 cylinder, 2.4L displacement engines compared to the 3 cylinder, 1.8L engine in the DK4210SE so that accounts for some of the cost difference.

It is interesting to look at the differences in lift capacity. If you look at the table in my previous post, the NX loader/bucket is significantly lighter than the Kuboto loader/bucket. The difference in lift capacity is very similar to the difference in loader weight.

 

[nota4re]

Kioti is not Kubota - yet.

I respect that opinion - but having recently shopped very objectively and narrowing down my decision to Kubota, Kioti, and Mahindra, I too have an opinion. First, from a pure here and now, product-only perspective, I don't think Mahindra is there yet. Close, but Kioti and Kubota have a better product. My humble opinion (again, from this product to product only perspective), I think Kioti has a better product than Kubota. As good or better quality, fit & finish, and features. Better specs - in some cases (ones that are important to me, like lift capacity), MUCH better specs. The edge that Kioti has is even more pronounced in their cab models. Nicer, roomier, better thought out interiors. Really.

But, when you look beyond the immediate, as delivered product and take other, very valid facts into consideration, the Kubota stands out. In most cases, better more established dealers, better service, and likely better parts distribution and availability. These are Kubota's hard-earned differentiators. In this regard, I agree with airbiscuit, Kioti isn't there... yet. They ARE making big investments in North America. Time will tell.

I went into my tractor search fully believing I would purchase another Kubota. But like trucks and cars, I don't have a lot of brand loyalty. I just want the best product for my needs at the best value,

 

[nota4re]

@nota4re, this is a very good thread that you started. I didn't know anything about Kioti a few weeks ago but I started looking closely at them recently and was able to drive an RX7320 yesterday which was revealing. There is no question that Kioti offers an incredible value and possibly a better option for many of us that end up buying a Kubota. I would have really liked to test or at least look at an NX6010 HSTC since that's the most obvious competitor to the MX6000 HSTC that I have coming in soon.

All of your points are very good - most especially the type of dealer supporting each product and their proximity to you!

The other thing is that you are comparing larger tractors than I was. Where my opinion that one was better than another - in the segment that I was more closely scrutinizing.... and it doesn't mean that the same opinion would necessarily apply to a larger, higher-HP segment.

But, it's all-good. I'm just sharing my findings. I just think where it's possible, buyers should have a look at other options - maybe the worst thing that could happen is that it could help you negotiate a better deal on that new Kubota!

 

[jimh406]

But, when you look beyond the immediate, as delivered product and take other, very valid facts into consideration, the Kubota stands out.

Yep, that’s why you should have bought a Kuboita, but good luck with the Kioti. I would be ok with having a real second Orange alternative in the future. Now though, there is only one Orange choice.

 

[mcmxi]

I just think where it's possible, buyers should have a look at other options - maybe the worst thing that could happen is that it could help you negotiate a better deal on that new Kubota!

I agree 100% and this is true of many things in life.

I'm not saying that an MX is a better choice than an NX, only a better choice for me, or more accurately, a choice that I'm happier making ... and there's a subtle difference there.

 

[sdk1968]

i have BOTH. so lots of Orange at my place.

thats really the best solution. have BOTH!!