Tractor sizing and New vs. Used ?s

[Peregrine Foxfire]

Hi all,

I know this is a common question so please forgive me if any of this has already been covered in other threads. I am starting a small veggie farm where I will be cultivating up to 4 acres of crops and mowing 10 acres. My farm is fairly flat and has sandy soil with lots of rocks. When I have worked on other farms I have had the privilege of operating the L4701 and MX5400 models, which worked great for everything I needed them for. In starting my own farm, however, I am not sure I can afford such a luxury right off the bat since they price out at $35-38k w/ basic options new. Plus I will likely need $10-15k for implements.

My main decision to make is whether I should buy a new tractor, pick out all the options I want and get 0% financing for 5 years, or find a used one in good condition that will fit my needs for roughly 60% of the new price but have to pay it all upfront.

In looking at used options, I found a great deal on a 2017 L3901 w/ FEL for $16k. I am ideally looking for 45hp or more but the price tag is certainly appealing. I have never worked with this tractor and am wondering what it's limitations may be. It has most of the features of the bigger models (smaller of course) but one thing I don't like is it doesn't have sway bars on the lever arms of TPH but only a turnbuckle adjustment. Perhaps I could swap that out...The biggest jobs I will need it for are pulling a disk harrow, subsoiler and occasionally moving pallets up to 2000 lbs.

I have looked all over for used L4701 tractors and have found a few in the $22-25k range within 500 miles that are 5 years old or newer. I have also found a M5640SU w/ backhoe for $19k but it is only 2 wheel drive. Anyone have any experience with using a 2wd tractor for growing crops?

I would greatly appreciate any insight and feedback anyone has about my situation. Also, time is of the essence as the growing season is upon us!

Thanks,
Peregrine

 

[jimh406]

In my area, used tractor ads seem to be scams or don’t exist. I would have bought used if I could have found a real one for 60% of the cost of new.

I would buy a 4wheel drive if for no other reason than resale value. For what I do, I find my L2501 to be fine, but without knowing why you need the extra HP, lift capability, etc. I can’t say if an L would be good for you or not.

 

[Bmyers]

You have picked an interesting time to try to tractor shop. As with many items, the availability is scarce. Finding a good used tractor or even a new tractor could prove challenging. Plus, get the implements you need, expect delays. If you are planning on doing anything quickly, you may be disappointed.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

re: I am starting a small veggie farm where I will be cultivating up to 4 acres of crops and mowing 10 acres.

Curious am I....
WHY mow 10 acres of grass ??? That's costing you money !! I plowed under the 1 acre of pristine, golfgreen lawn' I bought next door,added compost and made 1,000s every year growing veggies. Have to admit growing the 'right' crops takes some planning, especially to see what SELLS , in your area. For me EVERY stalk of rhubarb sells, every bulb of garlic sells, same for tomatoes and peppers and cukes......
As for equipment, I use subsoiler,3F plow and 5' tiller. subsoiler, cause it's fun to run, plow to properly turn over the soil, tiller to make great seedbeds. Sold the tandem discs years ago, asI always add a LOT of compost,ponypoop,grass clippings, leaf mulch, etc. every year. You have to replace what you take.

 

[Peregrine Foxfire]

Well to be fair, I won't just be mowing anything. It will be a combination of grazing and making hay. Thanks for the input so far. I'll definitely keep in mind that the market is crazy right now and will act fast if something comes up.

 

[Peregrine Foxfire]

I have found a few nice tractors that don't have a front loader and am curious what it takes to install a FEL when it wasn't set up for it? will there be hydraulic ports available or will that all need to be bought/installed in addition to the actual lift arms?

 

[BigG]

There is a lot more info needed to give sound advice. What kind of crops do you intend to grow? There are tractors that are designed for row crop production that will make your gardening easier. Tilmor, Tuff-Built and Ogunn tractors are designed for the kind of thing you are looking to do. Older tractors such as a Farmall Cub, or International 140 or AC "G". That leaves your desire for a FEL out but there are work arounds for that also.

 

[Peregrine Foxfire]

There is a lot more info needed to give sound advice. What kind of crops do you intend to grow? There are tractors that are designed for row crop production that will make your gardening easier. Tilmor, Tuff-Built and Ogunn tractors are designed for the kind of thing you are looking to do. Older tractors such as a Farmall Cub, or International 140 or AC "G". That leaves your desire for a FEL out but there are work arounds for that also.

I am talking about growing 3-4 acres of mixed vegetables: greens, tomatoes, cucumbers, lettuce, potatoes, squash, beets, carrots, garlic, onions, etc. I will be managing cover crops and pasture and may eventually grow grains. I already have a Cub that a friend is loaning me so that will cover my mechanical cultivation needs for weed control, however it can't pull a plow or disk and doesn't have a loader. I need the loader for making and spreading compost and pulling out rocks, among other things.

The big question is whether a 39 hp will be enough muscle or if it will leave me wanting more power...

 

[BigG]

I am talking about growing 3-4 acres of mixed vegetables: greens, tomatoes, cucumbers, lettuce, potatoes, squash, beets, carrots, garlic, onions, etc. I will be managing cover crops and pasture and may eventually grow grains. I already have a Cub that a friend is loaning me so that will cover my mechanical cultivation needs for weed control, however it can't pull a plow or disk and doesn't have a loader. I need the loader for making and spreading compost and pulling out rocks, among other things.

The big question is whether a 39 hp will be enough muscle or if it will leave me wanting more power...

The Cub will allow you to get started at a low cost. A Cub will pull a single bottom 2-way plow and a five foot disk. I have gardened with one for years as did my parents.

Your quest for a FEL to pick up 2000 pounds will run you into some big money. I am saying the Cub will get you up and running for this year and as you grow you can get the bigger tractor. The loader capacity for a L4701 is less then 1700 and well into the $30's for money. That is a big nut to crack when you are stating out.

I would continue to look for an older tractor for your farm with the front end loader. 14 - 15 acres will not make enough money to quickly recover from the investment of the new large tractor.

 

[swpflipper]

I'm not a farmer. I do own a business. If the used price is 60% of new and it is not financed, that can have a big impact on cash flow. Finance used would keep more cash available. however at the 0% that is like free money and you get the tool you need.
When I started I financed used trucks. Because they were 40% of new. And you never have enough cash when starting a business.
If you finance used remember, the interest is deductible. Either machine is deductible too. A mentor of mine said... You can pay interest or tax. One you get what you want, the other the government does.

 

[JimmyJazz]

This might require stretching your thinking quite a bit, no insult intended, but here goes. The goal of most operations farming or otherwise is to produce a profit. The bigger the better. Look up Neversink Farm on YouTube. Thats the template I would start with. He claims to gross $350,000 on 1.5 acres with no machinery other than some automated greenhouse equipment. Most profitable agricultural enterprises are either huge or niche/specialized with little in the middle. Spend your money where the return will be greatest. A greenhouse "pencils out" better than just about anything in farming . Neversink Farm is not just growing vegetables its a well thought out and articulated philosophy that makes money. Making the most money on the least acreage with as little debt as possible would be my focus . Good luck.

 

[Andrew270]

For comparison sake, I had a buddy price a new 3901 with fel,5'disk, 6'bush hog, tiller and a trailer and it came in at about 32k before tax. That is the la525 loader which says it will lift 1155 lbs at the pivot pins at full height. 2000lbs is a stretch for sure. Might have to find some used equipment and a bigger tractor or increase in the budget if possible.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Ok, have to ask about the 2000# skid. That's a serious amount of weight. Take a 40x48 skid(real common size), a layer(60pcs,10x6) of 4by8 pavings stones weighs 300#,so just seven layers is 2100#. Whatever you have on skid, can it be shipped on two or 2 skids ?? If you call and say 'les than 1000# per skid I can forklift off, otherwise we have to hand bomb piece by piece', the vendor will 'skid lightly'. saves them time and money.
You don'r really 'need' 4WD. Millions of farmers used 2WD tractors for 50-60-70 years,just fine. Lower upfront cost, fewer $$$ repairs. I had 4 AC D-14s(only 3 now) usually did 8-10 acres a year for 15 years,mostly flatish land,one section hilly though.Only time I use the 'true' loader D-14 was tolift 1500# giant pumpkins.one had tiller, other a 'carryall'. I've got far less in those 3 tractors and 9 implements than my BX23S.
As for crops...you need to KNOW what WILL sell in your area. I can sell garlic 8 days a week for $10 a pound. Easy to grow..till soil, poke holes,toss in,cover,water, weed once in awhile, harvest, make money. Only do 3-400 a year now an dpicke the biggest bulbs for next years planting( zero input cost.... !). Don't plant potatoes anymore. Bugs are horrendous,you could pick them off 24/7 and still never get most of them. No access to 'sprays' that might not work either.
Irrigation is a big issue. You need regular,deep waterings to grow big veggies.Consider water tanks. I have 2000g tank + 10 225g totes. collect rainwater...warm and soft, far better than cold,hard well water.
best thing to do is write down stuff ! make charts of costs and features, planting timetables, etc.,record HOW the harvest did. Remember , 10 years from now, you've only farmed ten times(ten plantings, 10 harvests), thats's not a lot of 'numbers' to deal with,but hopefully show you what crops make money and others that don't. Keep track of TRUE 'input costs',especially downtime or travel time. An hour to get a part is one less hour harvesting......

 

[NCL4701]

I’m not a vegetable farmer so not much help with that aspect. Noticed you said you sometimes have to move 2000lb pallets. If that’s a deal breaker requirement that may be what makes your decision.

You probably already know the number on the loader (LAxxx) is the full height loader capacity at the pins in kg. I have a L4701. I would be pleasantly surprised if it would get a 2000lb pallet off the ground to transport height. The M5400 loader is much more capable than the L4701 or L3901 and would definitely handle a 2000lb pallet. If I was considering the L4701 or 3901 I’d want to see it pick up the heaviest pallet you need to move to whatever height you need it lifted to.

The specs on the LA765 loader for the L4701 should be below.

 

[GeoHorn]

Sounds to me like you don’t need an HST tranny.... You need a gear-drive, with a FEL that can lift 2K... sorta like my M4700DT with LA1002 that cost me only $17K with less than 400hrs on it and ZERO emissions controls to worry about. ( approx 50hp/2K lift cap)
Several more were avail at the time within 25 miles of home.... May not be the same in Palermo, but USED is what I’d do.... and DID. Attachments can be bought used also.

Be aware, lift capacity is usually at pins and does NOT include the weight of the forks or the SSQA if you get that. Also, be alert to the difference between open station and cab tractors and whether or nor you actually need that expensive cab.

 

[Peregrine Foxfire]

Wow, this is great! Thanks for all your input.

To answer the question about lift capacity. My potting soil comes in a 2 yard sling on a pallet that weighs 2500#. I have found in the past that with a 4701 or 5400, and a heavy rear ballast, I can't really "lift" it but can get it a few inches off the ground, which is enough to receive it from the shipper and move to the greenhouse. Of course I could (and have) break it down by scooping half of the contents into another container. This is not the most vital use of the tractor and there are certainly ways to work around it. I just want to be sure my tractor can function as a forklift as well as a field tractor.

 

[Fordtech86]

For moving the pallets would rear pallet forks be an option? You can lift more on the 3 pt then you can with the loader.

 

[UpNorthMI]

Your tractor is not a fork lift. The L3901 is weak at lifting heavy loads, you will barely lift 1,000 lbs with forks on the loader. The MX is what you need but you are a little over it’s lift capacity.
Your idea of scooping some of the weight out is good if it is practical.

when my MX won’t lift it, I use my track loader or lift truck, they also have some safety factor

If you remove the lift requirement the L3901 will do most of what you want but with smaller attachments than the MX, the L will just need a little more time.

good luck working things out.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Ok... up here in Ontario, they drop off 'cubes' of soil,3mix, etc. using a HIAB crane on the delivery truck. I have to assume 'they' can do that where you live ? Otherwise just HOW does a 70 year old homeowner get their topsoil off the delivery truck ??
A possible option if you HAVE to unload, is to buy several 'cubes' or 'slings', rent /borrow a real forklift for the 1/2 day to unload the truck. It may(should) be far cheaper to order a dumptruck load of 'soil'(15 yds) and have him 'dump and go'. I've had 100s of load delivered this way(usually free topsoil from pool installs). I then use my BX23S to load up my 4yd dump trailer and haul wherever the soil is needed.
Just trying to think of options for you.