Well... It’s Finally A COLD DAY IN HELL. !!!

BobInSD

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L5740
Jun 23, 2020
364
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43
South Dakota
Those zones on that map in no way reflect actual physical boundaries of energy transmission. Those are just political/financial boundaries waiting for one gozillionaire to pay another for what they don't have enough of, whether temporarily or permanently. I know for a fact it's pretty simple matter of exporting power from Alabama all the way to west Texas. Southern Company makes a lot of money doing exactly that. Been there, done that.
Not exactly. There definitely are physical boundaries, since (most of) the lines shown represent places where the grids are (likely to be) running out of synch with each other and elaborate tie ins are required. Yes, energy moves across those lines, but much slower than it can move within the different areas.

In addition to that, there are bottlenecks due to the sale of electricity, called "market to market" or "M2M" constraints. Unfortunately, I took this screenshot before they finished loading, but I drew some white lines where the M2M constraints were in the figure below. Note that electricity in North Dakota and southern South Dakota is wholesaling for negative $10/ Megawatt hour. They were paying to have it dumped, yet down in Texas (which I didn't catch in the shot) it was selling for $600/MWhr. If they could have sent that juice from ND to TX the map wouldn't look like this. And, an hour later it did not.

Screen Shot 2021-02-16 at 1.22.51 PM.png


You can see the current price contour map here:

http://pricecontourmap.spp.org/pricecontourmap/

and, today, it is mostly the same color but you can see the very few "interfaces" where juice can be sent across and how they form bottlenecks (to a lesser extent than crossing area boundaries, but very significant this past week)
 

random

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I've known people, city-dwellers inevitably, who do their grocery shopping daily, on the way home from work. They don't even go paycheck to paycheck.
 

GeoHorn

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I've known people, city-dwellers inevitably, who do their grocery shopping daily, on the way home from work. They don't even go paycheck to paycheck.
Much of the rest of the world shops like that. But they are usually buying fresher produce, meats and fish, etc. and do not rely on home-owner refrigerator/freezers or electricity to run them, and their meals are simpler, less-processed, healthier in some respects especially in the Mediterranean, Scandinavia and parts of the Middle and Far East.
 

bird dogger

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Those zones on that map in no way reflect actual physical boundaries of energy transmission. Those are just political/financial boundaries waiting for one gozillionaire to pay another for what they don't have enough of, whether temporarily or permanently. I know for a fact it's pretty simple matter of exporting power from Alabama all the way to west Texas. Southern Company makes a lot of money doing exactly that. Been there, done that.

I guess I have a different definition from "renewable" and "sustainable" from what MSM does. I'd prefer "RELIABLE" and "ALTERNATE" to be used to describe energy derived from non-conventional sources, with the emphasis on Reliable. I think this week proved neither solar nor wind is the correct selection in snowy/icy/windy conditions. I'm sure a lot of Texans are agreeing with me at the moment. I don't think we're quite ready to shut down all the fossil fuel plants yet. I'm more than happy to accept the use of solar and wind technology for peaking and supplementation, but neither is reliable enough to put human life on the line yet.
I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know near enough, but I did spend 40+ yrs as a relay technician in the business. Those colored areas on that map are just as was stated: Operational Areas. It depends on what you call physical boundaries as to what those are. There are no walls, gates, etc., but there are service territories. They may operate differently where you are but I’d guess they’re similar to here in that the different electrical service providers have their own service territories; whether those territories are municipal or rural. And one service provider doesn’t overtly take over and extend their services into another provider's area without some formal agreement. And that does happen when it’s more convenient/cost effective and an elaborate metering scheme is put in place to keep track of the power flow to meet the terms of the agreement. Other than that, just about all power flow from one area to/from another is done through those high voltage transmission lines between those large interconnect substations. And when they involve more than two parties the metering schemes can become quite elaborate and tricky.

As BobInSD also stated and I completely agree, it’s complicated to ship large quantities of power quickly from one area to the other over large distances depending on the circumstances.

It no longer is just about pure watts (power) being shipped but involves voltage, vars, qhours, phase angles, and whether they’re positive or negative, etc.…..all of which are needed to get that power to flow in the right direction to where it’s needed. Thus, those operational agencies to facilitate that. There can be times when the VARs (pretty much useless power) are just as important as Watts in order to control voltage on the lines and the directional flow. And a minor mistake in the setup of those elaborate metering schemes can amount to a pile of money and hard feelings when discovered later and a resolution is negotiated between the parties involved.

I asked of and one of our retired system operators said he believes one of the very few if not only outside ties to the electrical grid that Ercot has is a HVDC (high voltage direct current) tie line across the border to Mexico, which concurs with what Russel King said in post 58 earlier. He also said that every year that they were sent for additional training a whole day/segment was spent on both the ERCOT and California systems which were used as examples of impending disaster should the right conditions come together to cause system failure with little to no means of outside help. Maybe Southern Company was able to sell power to Texas through Mexico. Or it could be that it was shipped to the part of Texas that isn’t within the Ercot grid. It would be interesting to know the actual details.

I like your description that you use of the two basic types of power. When people ask me my thoughts I respond similarly. But instead of the term “reliable” that you use for the conventional generation I like to use the term “Essential” for the base load capabilities of those fossil fuel, hydro, or nuclear facilities. People will soon (if not now) have to decide where that line between “essential” and “alternate” energy should lay and what the actual costs of each can amount to. What’s happened in Texas illustrates what can happen when there’s too much of one and not enough of the other without the proper safeguards, backups, management, planning, storage, etc. put in place. Government subsidies for the green energy make it seem reasonably priced and have led to much advancement in the industry. But its growth has sort of overshot its reliability when it's depended upon for supplying base load power without the means to temporarily store its green energy. The lack of new "essential" base load generation because of the growth of green energy and the cost of EPA restrictions has now shown what can happen when that green energy is relied upon for constant power to supply those base load needs and #%%!! happens.
 
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Russell King

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The Texas grid is inside the state to limit the federal government’s involvement with our system since there is no intrastate commerce involved.

The grid was fairly close to collapse from low frequency on the grid. Several fossil fuel plants failed due to the weather and lack of fuel.

ERCOT just manages what is needed vs what is produced. They have no real power over the generation plants to make them do anything. They can ask for improvement but not force it.

ERCOT saw an imminent failure and asked (required) for distributors to reduce the demand quickly before the automatic system started to balance the load by turning off whatever and wherever it needed to so a balance was reached. The distribution system was supposed to go to rolling blackouts but some had system problems.

In Austin there was such a reduction required that they only left on the critical grid areas (government, hospital, fire, police, pumping station,..). There was no power left to roll. Luck has it that I happen to be in one of those areas where power never went out. I have friends that were without power from Sunday to Wednesday, both within the .

Austin has shut down a few of their power plants for age, noise and other political reasons and became a purchaser instead of a producer.
 

GeoHorn

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The Texas grid is inside the state to limit the federal government’s involvement with our system since there is no intrastate commerce involved.

The grid was fairly close to collapse from low frequency on the grid. Several fossil fuel plants failed due to the weather and lack of fuel.

ERCOT just manages what is needed vs what is produced. They have no real power over the generation plants to make them do anything. They can ask for improvement but not force it.

ERCOT saw an imminent failure and asked (required) for distributors to reduce the demand quickly before the automatic system started to balance the load by turning off whatever and wherever it needed to so a balance was reached. The distribution system was supposed to go to rolling blackouts but some had system problems.

In Austin there was such a reduction required that they only left on the critical grid areas (government, hospital, fire, police, pumping station,..). There was no power left to roll. Luck has it that I happen to be in one of those areas where power never went out. I have friends that were without power from Sunday to Wednesday, both within the .

Austin has shut down a few of their power plants for age, noise and other political reasons and became a purchaser instead of a producer.
Don’t forget to mention that Austin refuses to limit electricity to downtown bldgs and local manufacturers.... instead cutting-off residences, apartments and even hospitals! without recognizing that elderly, sick, and those home-bound needing oxygen generators and health-equipment, and the elderly etc in poor areas do not have alternatives.
I too am in a small pocket of insignificance and have not lost power (although I have back-up-generator available) and I feel sorry for those folks who are going without critical power while large bldgs downtown that aren’t occupied anyway have power and are all lit-up 24 hrs a day. My son, who lives in SW Austin has power....but no water because they were told NOT to drip faucets to conserve water... which reduced flow until the local MUD districts’ pumps froze for lack of flow (according to anedotes.)
 

Old_Paint

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BD, I wasn't a relay technician, but sure did my share of power management in more localized applications. Power management works the same way with utilities, but it's just done with bigger ones and zeroes and fancier computers. I've done loss-of-source load shedding, demand load shedding (by projecting peak demands), and like you pointed out, had to accommodate every one of those little magic numbers that most customers never see. I even modeled the performance curves on a couple 20 MW generators in a paper mill in southern Mississippi, so I could take them to max limits when the mill was in full production and on a lowered peak demand with a power factor penalty. I took control of the two vent valves so I could vent the low-pressure headers and let the generators put out more. Normally, I'd just cram every ounce of steam I could through the condenser by calling for more flow through the condenser stages to the turbine controls. Costs a lot less to do that than vent it. This is not easy to do when the generators have old analog EHC turbine controls and analog Exciters. A slow response in these systems may as well be no response. When grid systems were down, that papermill would back off on production, and provide power to the local town (where most of the employees lived) until Utility service was restored. Being on the Gulf Coast, you can imagine how often the distribution grid is disrupted by hurricanes.

I put in energy management systems all over the US, some of which had as many as 8 generators and 4 utility ties. That work took me to some interesting places. Most of them were based on the different type of power purchasing contract the customer had. The old peak billing systems are all but gone now, except for large commercial users with no cogeneration, and even those customers typically have the newer LIP contracts that allow them to take what they need until the Utility calls them and says back off.

The only thing I meant by what I said about those boundaries is that the distribution lines do actually cross those boundaries with some pretty simple switching. The only things that stops the power flow is money, and someone in control of that money, or known distribution issues that would compromise the neighboring provider. If ERCOT can do rolling outages (which apparently didn't work very well) they're a lot less likely to purchase from SoCo (SERTP), TVA, or any other commercial zone. They'd rather take the hit. The losses from the outage are a drop in the bucket compared to the price of sustained purchasing from and adjacent zone. It looks better at the end of the quarter when there's lower variable costs in the spreadsheets. I don't remember any reports of widespread outages in Louisiana, and apparently they had quite a storm (for Louisiana) too.

The worst problem in the south is when ice builds up and pulls down the lines. I don't care how much power your neighbor has then, you can't use it if your distribution system is compromised.
 

Old_Paint

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Much of the rest of the world shops like that. But they are usually buying fresher produce, meats and fish, etc. and do not rely on home-owner refrigerator/freezers or electricity to run them, and their meals are simpler, less-processed, healthier in some respects especially in the Mediterranean, Scandinavia and parts of the Middle and Far East.
We shop nearly daily, but not because we can't afford to stock up. It's mostly because the produce will rot if you have it more than a couple days. I don't like just throwing food out, so I don't say anything about the Missus' pantry management style.
 

nbryan

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B2650 BH77 LA534 54" ssqa Forks B2782B BB1560 Woods M5-4 MaxxHaul 50039
Jan 3, 2019
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Hadashville, Manitoba, Canada
A balmy -12C +10F high today here. It's been below -30C -22F overnight lows for a couple of weeks, so -20C -4F lows feel nice!
And could use more snow here. it's been a pretty dry fall and winter.
Living here in rural SE Manitoba, for us, means an airtight woodstove for heating our well insulated home, a 2800W inverter genset for power outages, freezers full of food, and a cistern with 300-400 gallons of water in the basement.
I like winter storms especially. I get to wield the tractor snow blower for a few days cleaning up! Bring it on!
Joking aside, I can't imagine the hell a lot of folks are experiencing down south with this freak cold and snow storm.
I hope your experiences result in better prepared utility companies for the next storms!
 

armylifer

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...as of two months ago...she’s there... someone found her on her bedroom floor.

Thunder chicken: “With these electric shortages in places.... is it because of a loss of generation, I’d think you guys run A/C all the time in the summer, those use as much juice as an electric heater.....?”

Apparently it‘s due to lack of experience with such severe winter conditions. Ice damage and such are causing transmission line damage. Austin is downstream of 5 nearby hydroelectric plants and participated years ago in a controversial atomic energy plant and has it’s own electric utility plants in town... generating capacity is not the problem... it’s infrastructure damage from heavy ice accumulations. Texans south of Amarillo just ain’t prepared for this sort of thing beyond a day or two.
I’m not a ”prepper”.... but a 70+ year-old Boy Scout living out in the country is and will “ BE PREPARED” .... it’s the city-dwellers who are in trouble power-wise.
My lives in Amarillo, TX and he says that things in that area of the panhandle are better than the DFW area. He was in DFW area this weekend and he said it was really bad there. I just wish that all of those without power are able to get to a safe warm place. Be safe out there and check on your neighbors. They may need help and just don't know where to ask for it. Be kind to those in need and everyone will reap a blessing.
 
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NHSleddog

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Dec 19, 2019
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One of the data centers we have servers in is in a "tight spot" current wise and often times in the summer the local power company will request one or more floors switch over to gen power.

The data center is the largest power user on that grid by far and by simply forcing them to generator, it frees up the rest of the power.
 

jabloomf1230

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B 3200
Sep 28, 2014
125
34
28
Voorheesville, NY
Wolfman's right about electric heat. And what's worse it's mostly inefficient resistive heat and not heat pumps. FL and NC where much of my family is, is the same way.
 

random

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L3301, bucket, backhoe, grader, plow, harrow, cultivator
Nov 2, 2020
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Much of the rest of the world shops like that. But they are usually buying fresher produce, meats and fish, etc. and do not rely on home-owner refrigerator/freezers or electricity to run them, and their meals are simpler, less-processed, healthier in some respects especially in the Mediterranean, Scandinavia and parts of the Middle and Far East.
Those circumstances make more sense for doing that than those I was referring to. Lack of the modern conveniences we take for granted certainly has an impact on your lifestyle.
 

sheepfarmer

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The
BD, I wasn't a relay technician, but sure did my share of power management in more localized applications. Power management works the same way with utilities, but it's just done with bigger ones and zeroes and fancier computers. I've done loss-of-source load shedding, demand load shedding (by projecting peak demands), and like you pointed out, had to accommodate every one of those little magic numbers that most customers never see. I even modeled the performance curves on a couple 20 MW generators in a paper mill in southern Mississippi, so I could take them to max limits when the mill was in full production and on a lowered peak demand with a power factor penalty. I took control of the two vent valves so I could vent the low-pressure headers and let the generators put out more. Normally, I'd just cram every ounce of steam I could through the condenser by calling for more flow through the condenser stages to the turbine controls. Costs a lot less to do that than vent it. This is not easy to do when the generators have old analog EHC turbine controls and analog Exciters. A slow response in these systems may as well be no response. When grid systems were down, that papermill would back off on production, and provide power to the local town (where most of the employees lived) until Utility service was restored. Being on the Gulf Coast, you can imagine how often the distribution grid is disrupted by hurricanes.

I put in energy management systems all over the US, some of which had as many as 8 generators and 4 utility ties. That work took me to some interesting places. Most of them were based on the different type of power purchasing contract the customer had. The old peak billing systems are all but gone now, except for large commercial users with no cogeneration, and even those customers typically have the newer LIP contracts that allow them to take what they need until the Utility calls them and says back off.

The only thing I meant by what I said about those boundaries is that the distribution lines do actually cross those boundaries with some pretty simple switching. The only things that stops the power flow is money, and someone in control of that money, or known distribution issues that would compromise the neighboring provider. If ERCOT can do rolling outages (which apparently didn't work very well) they're a lot less likely to purchase from SoCo (SERTP), TVA, or any other commercial zone. They'd rather take the hit. The losses from the outage are a drop in the bucket compared to the price of sustained purchasing from and adjacent zone. It looks better at the end of the quarter when there's lower variable costs in the spreadsheets. I don't remember any reports of widespread outages in Louisiana, and apparently they had quite a storm (for Louisiana) too.

The worst problem in the south is when ice builds up and pulls down the lines. I don't care how much power your neighbor has then, you can't use it if your distribution system is compromised.
These insights into how the companies work are interesting.

Anyone looking into "hardening" up the distribution system? No one wants to pay for it, but the poles and lines and such on my property are I am betting at least 75 years old. Tried to get some of it rerouted from over my house and patio, me paying for it, and got nowhere. Other than chopping down trees, there isn't much maintenance, and no improvements going on. Is overhead wiring the way to go in the future?
 

Crash277

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BX23S
Jan 17, 2021
846
622
93
Canada
Cold day is right. But always a good time on the hard water. Yesterday was hard on the machines. There was 18” of ice with 12” of slush with almost another 12“ of snow on top. Warmed up to -4 c so it wasn’t too bad. E3FDC4C5-A5EB-4E86-AD77-739840DA9CC0.jpeg
B754ADA7-BCEC-436E-B710-5CC41B23B03D.jpeg

that’s all solid ice. Thinking im done with the ice fishing this season.
F63026E0-8B1C-453D-A6AE-0E64F74CEE00.jpeg