CVT vs. Automatic Transmission in car

[JohnDB]

...
Many new high powered ag tractors today are some type of CVT transmission

I heard that too, but when you look at the videos, the only ones I found on tractors are hydrostatic. Not a belt or chain in sight. Example:

The thing I didn't like about the only CVT car I drove for any length of time was the rubber band sensation... simply didn't have the responsiveness even compared to modern torque-converter auto trans gearboxes.

 

[SidecarFlip]

All I have to say is, I never want to pay to have that sucker rebuilt.

 

[mikester]

appreciate that input dochsml. 3 years with no issues is good to hear. My wife looked at subaru as well but for whatever reason passed them by. She has spent weeks watching YouTube videos and looking online at all the various SUV's.

I am familiar with how the CVT works, and of the fact that it will take some getting used to it. I'm mostly concerned with reliability of these things, or if they have any quirks that make them annoying to drive. You mention a stutter for example when you let off the gas - those are things Id like to be aware of.

Like any car, if you do your research, and pick the most reliable ones, you will be less likely to have problems. I wouldn't worry about the CVT on the Toyota's as they've had a long time in production, are on their 4th generation, and many bugs have been ironed out.

Last time I checked the Toyota Prius Hybrid was at the top of multiple lists for car reliability.

From personal experience, I have 3 hybrids including an 08 Prius with 380K km, and a 13 Prius V with 240K kms on it and zero tranny problems. All my Toyota hybrids have been bullet proof and zero problems engine and tranny wise.

The newer hybrid CVT's run smooth and quiet, the older ones sound like the engine has to wind up before they go. The hybrid engines sound like they are revving higher because the wheel speeds are regulated more by the CVT than the engine and the engine is kept operating at optimal power and fuel economy ranges. My 18 Camry Hybrid can be hard to tell when the engine engages/disengages and is very smooth and quiet.

 

[Tornado]

Appreciate all the continued replies and insights. My wife and I plan to hit the dealerships tomorrow morning. I hate buying new vehicles. I have a low level anxiety today knowing its coming. I just hate spending that much money, it just makes me anxious lol.

I feel like in my research I am noticing a trend - or what I think is a trend. It seems CVT transmissions have a lot of detractors out there who seem to originate from when they first started landing in vehicles. It seems CVT's did have some initial problems or issues. Heat, causing belts to expand which drivers could feel in the gas pedal (loss of acceleration etc), lots of issues with the tranny feeling jerky, or making odd noises under various circumstances, and many other annoyances. The best I can tell, many manufacturers have attempted to address these issues over the years. From what I can tell also it seems toyota has one of the best CVT's on the market - but again this is hard to really put a finger on, but I don't seem to see near the negative about them as some other brands.

All of the CVT transmissions in the toyota rav4 seem to be on the Hybrid models. In many of our local dealerships, most of the nicer Rav4's that have the more advanced packages and bells and whistles are this varient - hybrids with cvt's. Most of the 8 speed transmissions Im seeing are Front wheel drive only, and are cheaper with less package options. All the hybrids are All wheel drive. I personally wanted to go AWD over FWD as the towing capacity goes up from 1500 lbs to 4500 lbs. This vehicle will be our road trip vehicle. My step dad has a place up in the mountains, so we may want to tow the four wheeler up there and stuff. 4 wheeler and my trailer will exceed 1500lbs, so I wanted to get into that AWD to ensure a better towing experience. It seems we are kinda locking into the hybrids if we do that though. The dealerships just seem to have a lot more hybrids on the lot than they do non hybrids, and the non hybrids im seeing are lower end options. Its almost as if toyota says, if you want a souped up rav4, we want you in our hybrid model.

 

[Fordtech86]

Tornado, FWIW, our auto group has a Toyota dealership and my service manager covers both stores. Also one of my good friends is the service manager at another large volume Toyota store. I asked both of them if there was any problems with their cvt’s and both said absolutely not. If you are pretty set on staying with Toyota I wouldn’t be scared of the cvt.

Is that the only brand you are considering?

 

[lugbolt]

yeah I've been in the powersports industry for many years too

CVT's will work in most applications. Some are MUCH better than others. Yamaha absolutely annhilates the competition (Polaris, most of the kawasuki's, etc). It is a wet clutch design that runs the actual CVT so that there is always constant tension on the belt, so the belt does not wear out. I have never replaced a yamaha CVT belt, ever. To get to the point, the early 2000's kawasaki atv's also used a belt drive (CVT) with a deflection sensor and an actuator that supposedly kept tension on the belt so it wouldn't take off as if it was in neutral down a hillside (engine braking). That system was totally flawed, it was weird to drive/ride, and when (not if) it failed in one way or another, it was way too expensive to fix. Similar to early Nissan CVT stuff in that sense. When it quit, you replace the vehicle.

Give me a manual transmission over a cvt or automatic. Automatics are pretty tough transmissions for the most part but same deal, when they die (and they all do at some point), grab your ankles--especially with autos built in the last 10 years or so. Completely electronic controls over the hydraulic system. Solenoids to shift rather than valving. It might be simpler and less expensive for the manufacturer but the end user pays the price. A rebuild on the 4R100 in my truck is going to be about $4800 (to do it right, with updates), and the truck isn't worth $5000 on the market. I may tackle it myself. I ain't new to automatics. All my other vehicles are manual transmission. It's a whole lot easier and less expensive (by far!) to replace a clutch than it is to rebuild an automatic. Just did a Tremec T5 rebuild recently, amazing how simple they are, and therein lies it's beauty--even though they aren't terribly strong. Unfortunately, the manual transmission is dying. 86% of Americans can't drive a manual. 14% can and I'm one of them. I prefer them.
Recently my GF and I were out in town and when we got back home, I just shut the key off and left the keys in the ignition (bad habit that I'm trying to rid myself of). She asked if I was gonna grab the keys out of the car, and I said naw, ain't but a few people can drive a stick anyway, so that "automatically" eliminates 86% of potential thieves....

Recently looked at buying a newer Mustang to replace my 93 (4 cylinder) coupe. Looked quite a bit between the Ecoboost and Coyote. I like them both, with the V8 having more power than I really need, and the litlte ecoboost 4 being impressive! But the problem is, they are pushing the 10 speed auto's and I just don't want one. Yeah, it's fun, it's faster than the MT-82 6 speed, but it's just not AS fun as rowing my own gears and choosing my own stall speed. So for now, I'm keeping my old turd. Why not, it's paid for and very very inexpensive for minor repairs, insurance, taxes, etc. The only bad part is, it rides rough, it's a little noisy, and the GF hates it. Good, she can drive her nice new expensive Acadia all she wants (and it is a nice car), until it needs some more repair, and she can pay to have it done because I can't....but I can repair every single part of my antique, at home, with mostly basic tooling.

 

[Fordtech86]

yeah I've been in the powersports industry for many years too

CVT's will work in most applications. Some are MUCH better than others. Yamaha absolutely annhilates the competition (Polaris, most of the kawasuki's, etc). It is a wet clutch design that runs the actual CVT so that there is always constant tension on the belt, so the belt does not wear out. I have never replaced a yamaha CVT belt, ever. To get to the point, the early 2000's kawasaki atv's also used a belt drive (CVT) with a deflection sensor and an actuator that supposedly kept tension on the belt so it wouldn't take off as if it was in neutral down a hillside (engine braking). That system was totally flawed, it was weird to drive/ride, and when (not if) it failed in one way or another, it was way too expensive to fix. Similar to early Nissan CVT stuff in that sense. When it quit, you replace the vehicle.

Give me a manual transmission over a cvt or automatic. Automatics are pretty tough transmissions for the most part but same deal, when they die (and they all do at some point), grab your ankles--especially with autos built in the last 10 years or so. Completely electronic controls over the hydraulic system. Solenoids to shift rather than valving. It might be simpler and less expensive for the manufacturer but the end user pays the price. A rebuild on the 4R100 in my truck is going to be about $4800 (to do it right, with updates), and the truck isn't worth $5000 on the market. I may tackle it myself. I ain't new to automatics. All my other vehicles are manual transmission. It's a whole lot easier and less expensive (by far!) to replace a clutch than it is to rebuild an automatic. Just did a Tremec T5 rebuild recently, amazing how simple they are, and therein lies it's beauty--even though they aren't terribly strong. Unfortunately, the manual transmission is dying. 86% of Americans can't drive a manual. 14% can and I'm one of them. I prefer them.
Recently my GF and I were out in town and when we got back home, I just shut the key off and left the keys in the ignition (bad habit that I'm trying to rid myself of). She asked if I was gonna grab the keys out of the car, and I said naw, ain't but a few people can drive a stick anyway, so that "automatically" eliminates 86% of potential thieves....

Recently looked at buying a newer Mustang to replace my 93 (4 cylinder) coupe. Looked quite a bit between the Ecoboost and Coyote. I like them both, with the V8 having more power than I really need, and the litlte ecoboost 4 being impressive! But the problem is, they are pushing the 10 speed auto's and I just don't want one. Yeah, it's fun, it's faster than the MT-82 6 speed, but it's just not AS fun as rowing my own gears and choosing my own stall speed. So for now, I'm keeping my old turd. Why not, it's paid for and very very inexpensive for minor repairs, insurance, taxes, etc. The only bad part is, it rides rough, it's a little noisy, and the GF hates it. Good, she can drive her nice new expensive Acadia all she wants (and it is a nice car), until it needs some more repair, and she can pay to have it done because I can't....but I can repair every single part of my antique, at home, with mostly basic tooling.

I don’t want to derail the thread but that seems pretty high for a 4r100 rebuild. Its a relatively simple transmission. I haven’t done transmissions since I moved down here (2011) but if you decide to do it yourself and need any info on it just PM me.

 

[CaveCreekRay]

My wife's SUV has an 8-spd and we both love it. Always in the power band and eager to up-shift when needed.

 

[Nicfin36]

I think you are on the right track with Toyota. I have had 4 vehicles in my life. All have been Toyotas and manual transmissions. I still own two. One is a 97 Tacoma that I have been driving for 20 years. I also have a 08 Yaris. Previous vehicles have been a 77 Corolla and an 84 Camry. They have saved me a ton of money because I have had to do very little to them.

That being said, I have read nothing good about CVT transmissions. However, I've never delved into the specifics of them, just remembering what I have read. It seems most I have read have been about Nissans.

It seems you and your wife tend to hold onto vehicles for a long time. If that is the case with the next vehicle, I (personally) would shy away from the CVT model.

 

[Stmar]

Or she may do what we did. Went looking at Toyotas, drove the RAV4 and 4Runner. As we were coming onto the lot I asked the salesman what that nice looking SUV sitting there was, Lincoln MKC. I drove it and the 2.3L turbo was great, eventually made a deal and ended up with it. Was not even thinking of a Lincoln but sometimes things just happen. Will I buy another? Probably not because of the ground clearance and practically no where to attach to pull it out of a snow drift but it is a great vehicle. I am thinking 4Runner next with tow hooks and I think they are coming out with a new engine, I know they are for the pickups in the next few years.

 

[Tornado]

well folks, the deed is done. We killed all day saturday test driving and looking, and wife made up her mind and we got the vehicle. She went with the Toyota Rav4 XSE Hybrid. The dealership we bought it from, they offer a lifetime powertrain warranty after the 3 year / 36,000 mile factory warranty expires. I questioned them hard about the cvt, and what if it fails, and they assured me that if it failed at 100,000 or 150,000 that it will be covered 100% - so long as we have maintained proper maintenance intervals on the vehicle as described in the owners manual. My wife really wanted that vehicle after the test drives. Its a slick ride, looks really nice, was loaded with features. Ive always been really sour on extended warranties but we also got the platinum extended warranted, gap insurance, the whole 9 yards. This is in addition to the lifetime powertrain which is simply offered free to all customers who buy a brand new toyota from this delear - there is no charge for that lifetime powertrain. The extended warranty and gap added basically $40/month to the car payment. The extended warranty may be crap, but it helped my wifes peace of mind (This suv is loaded with camera's, sensors, and electronics everywhere) The business manager did his job at selling the warranty hard, as I had warned her he would. We both left sick to our stomach lol. We both hate spending that much money, and being forced to play the deal game. It will take us several days before we can actually enjoy the car.

 

[CaveCreekRay]

My 2006 Suzuki Burgman scooter has a CVT and they are bullet proof. There are owners on the Suzuki owners forum that have 100,000 problem free miles on their bikes and a few tow trailers on their trips. It's a metal-on-metal gear set that is PFM. If done right, they are a marvel. The key is keeping the tranny service up to date, mileage wise.

 

[lugbolt]

Dodge pulled the same stunt with my friend.

"it's covered so long as you keep up with proper maintenance per the owner's manual"....

what they didn't tell him was that the 50,000 mile "service" included removal/cleaning of the DPF, among many other items. $2700 worth of "normal maintenance".

You either pay now, or you pay later....

 

[lugbolt]

I don’t want to derail the thread but that seems pretty high for a 4r100 rebuild. Its a relatively simple transmission. I haven’t done transmissions since I moved down here (2011) but if you decide to do it yourself and need any info on it just PM me.

thanks

I am not new to automatic rebuilds, just new to anything built since about 2004. 4R70W was the last one I went into. Currently doing an old powerglide for the race car. I like those. SUPER simple, easy, kinda fun to mess with.

 

[Tornado]

Dodge pulled the same stunt with my friend.

"it's covered so long as you keep up with proper maintenance per the owner's manual"....

what they didn't tell him was that the 50,000 mile "service" included removal/cleaning of the DPF, among many other items. $2700 worth of "normal maintenance".

You either pay now, or you pay later....

I did touch on this issue with the finance manager. He did mention a few items that the service department would recommend doing at certain points that would cost a few hundred dollars. I didn't get into the weeds with them on it but I did touch on this issue. I brought up the fact that they say 10,000 mile for oil changes but the manual called for 7,500 miles, I said this could lead some folks to follow your guidance here at the dealership and essentially void the very warranty you are offering. He said that was a good point before trailing off into something. I will follow the owners manual on service, and keep all receipts of those services. Its all you can do really. Its been over a week now since we got the vehicle and I'm finally settling down. Mostly got tired of thinking about it and finally said Ok, enough is enough, I've done all I can. I've read good things about toyota's cvt's so just hoping we dont have issues with it.

 

[dandeman]

well folks, the deed is done. We killed all day saturday test driving and looking, and wife made up her mind and we got the vehicle. She went with the Toyota Rav4 XSE Hybrid. The dealership we bought it from, they offer a lifetime powertrain warranty after the 3 year / 36,000 mile factory warranty expires. I questioned them hard about the cvt, and what if it fails, and they assured me that if it failed at 100,000 or 150,000 that it will be covered 100% -

While the name CVT is used by many in reference to Toyota Hybrids that's a bit of a misnomer... The Hybrid Synergy Drive, (Toyota's name) is not a CVT belt/variable diameter cone pulley system which the CVT name generally applies to, but instead uses a planetary gear set that couples the engine, MG1 & MG2 as follows .

The larger MG2 motor generator connected to the planetary ring gear that couples directly to the differential and the smaller MG1 motor generator drives the sun gear and the engine drives the planetary gear carrier. MG1 to MG2 rpm relationship determines the gear ratio that the engine "sees". The plantetary gear set ratio acts as a torque split device with the majority of the engine power is directed through the plantary gear set for more efficiency. The entire unit has its own radiator/cooling system separate from the engine. There are no clutch packs and band clutches inside the oil cooled unit so there is no sluffing off of clutch material into the oil as the clutch packs wear in conventional automatic transmissions. All internal rotating assemblies have needle bearings.

Good explanation and view of the internals here:

Hybrid battery life typically outlasts most automatic transmissions and are commonly cheaper to replace than many automatic transmission ovehauls, especially if the auto has significant internal damage beyond worn-out/overheated cluch packs.

Toyota hybrid cars and the Prius in particular have proven to be one of the most reliable cars Toyota has ever built.

Hybrid Synergy Drive - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org