B7100 Hydraulic pump swaps

[D2Cat]

Nope, that slow boat only takes 30 days. They are still in the factory!!

 

[torch]

Well, it is installed and short story: it probably wasn't worth the time and money. That said, this would be an excellent and economic replacement for a worn-out pump, if they happen to be available when you need one.

Longer version: I've been checking the WHP website periodically and the other day things changed from 80 on order, 0 in stock to 63 on order, 1 in stock. So I snapped it up. They shipped it by DHL and it arrived from England in 3 or 4 days.

Before installing, I did some loader work moving snow piles to warm up the fluid. Then I checked the cycle time: 4 cycles of the lift arms from bottom to top and back down again took 63 seconds -- just a hair under 16 seconds per cycle. After installation the same 4 cycles took 51 seconds, or about 13 seconds per cycle. Better, yes, but less than 20% faster -- hardly the twice-as-fast I was hoping for by swapping in a 6 gpm pump for the stock 3 gpm unit.

Installation was reasonably straight-forward, except for the one nut at the top outboard corner. That one was a mother and required some customization of a 12mm wrench with a torch and grinder.

The plumbing outlets were fairly close to the stock location. The hard-piped outlet was 4mm further from the flange and the inlet is on rubber hoses anyway so the deviation was easily handled. For the outlet, I loosened the bolt securing the hydraulic block to the engine about 1/4", connected the banjo to the pump, then tightened the hydraulic block back up to draw the pipe into place.

Here's some pics comparing the original pump with its bigger replacement:

And one of the new pump installed:

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

The more I've looked into this, the more I'm sure the key to the pump outputs is more in the gear drive running the pump faster than it is in the actual pump.
But like I've noted to others, the gear drive will not work on the stock fuel cam, you would need to change it to a cam with the proper gear drive capability.

 

[torch]

From what I can tell, the gear drive bumps the B8200 output up from 6 gpm to 6.5 gpm. The pumps are rated in cc (or ounces) per revolution, so speed is unquestionably a factor. More RPM = more gpm.

Interestingly, I get back to 16 seconds/cycle at slightly over 1/2 throttle now. I wish I'd timed the old pump at 1/2 throttle. Friction loss may also play a role here.

 

[Athlonman]

Just want to thank everyone here for this info! I took a big gamble and I was successfully able to mount this pump to a B4200! it was tight to say the least. had to shave the one corner off the pump a little so it could slip between the injector pump and flywheel. Also had to cut the pump inlet shorter by about 1/2 and inch.

But it works well and I am very happy!

 

[torch]

Neat!

I'm curious: did you change the pump for increased capacity, or because the old pump was worn out?

 

[Athlonman]

Neat!

I'm curious: did you change the pump for increased capacity, or because the old pump was worn out?

It was worn out. It wouldn't even hit relief valve pressure! Cavitating in the pump. It was not properly maintained by previous owner.

 

[jrslick]

I just installed this same pump, I can not get the input line to fit. I see in one of the pictures that they have a screw clamp on a piece of rubber hose on the input line. Can I cut the line and do that? It is just a few millimeters too long. I tried to bend it, but I am not having any luck. I got the outflow line to line up with no issues.

Thanks,

Jay

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I just installed this same pump, I can not get the input line to fit. I see in one of the pictures that they have a screw clamp on a piece of rubber hose on the input line. Can I cut the line and do that? It is just a few millimeters too long. I tried to bend it, but I am not having any luck. I got the outflow line to line up with no issues.

Thanks,

Jay

One trick to getting it to line up is to loosen the pump on the motor and then attach the suction line then re-tighten the pump.

If you cut the line, do not use regular hose it needs to be suction hose that reinforced so it doesn't collapse.
Use 2 clamps per side

 

[torch]

I just installed this same pump, I can not get the input line to fit.

On a B7100? The input line is on top, both ends run into rubber lines, I just loosened both clamps and let the hoses readjust themselves.

The bottom is the ouput on the B7100, and that's the one I had issues with as it is hard pipe between pump and hydraulic block. I loosened the hydraulic block mounting screws, installed the pipe with the banjo a bit loose, then tightened the block to adjust the pipe's bend. If necessary, one could pry out slightly on the pipe at the same time to help convince it.

 

[jrslick]

On a B7100? The input line is on top, both ends run into rubber lines, I just loosened both clamps and let the hoses readjust themselves.

The bottom is the ouput on the B7100, and that's the one I had issues with as it is hard pipe between pump and hydraulic block. I loosened the hydraulic block mounting screws, installed the pipe with the banjo a bit loose, then tightened the block to adjust the pipe's bend. If necessary, one could pry out slightly on the pipe at the same time to help convince it.

Yes the input lines I have a solid pipe. So ours are different. Can you share a pic of yours? Thanks.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

The suction line, the upper and larger of the two lines already has a flexible section in the line. now the front of that line on a HST is solid (goes to the cooler), there you just need to remove a clamp to give it some play.

The pressure line, lower and smaller of the toe lines CAN NOT be cut and have a hose section installed.
Just do like torch said, remove the bolts on the block and line clamp and pry it a little to get it to fit.

Suction line flexible section:

Pressure line block:

 

[jrslick]

Thank you for the picture. I do not have a HST, mine is a gear tractor. I also do not have the flexible splice so, it looks like I may be splicing it and installing one.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

It doesn't matter if you have a HST or a DT, they both have the same flexible link, just no pipe for the cooler.

I'm wondering if because you have the gear reduction unit on that B7100 or maybe even a possible rebadged b7001 is the reason that it's different.

Picture of the suction line would help.

 

[jrslick]

Thanks Wolfman for the advice. I went ahead and cut the suction line, took out a 1/4-1/2 inch, put in the rubber hose and two screw clamps and was able to put it all back together. As of right now, it doesn't leak.

The 3 point arms aren't working 100% right. I have added back fluid, but there must be some air in the system because they aren't going down very easy and the lift is a little rough.

 

[jrslick]

Here is what it looked like before I cut it.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Thanks Wolfman for the advice. I went ahead and cut the suction line, took out a 1/4-1/2 inch, put in the rubber hose and two screw clamps and was able to put it all back together. As of right now, it doesn't leak.

The 3 point arms aren't working 100% right. I have added back fluid, but there must be some air in the system because they aren't going down very easy and the lift is a little rough.

You are sucking air into the system.

Why did you initially change the pump?

Did you replace the strainer filter ?

Did you use new Kubota O-rings on the fittings?

 

[jrslick]

You are sucking air into the system.

I wondered about that. I bet I am getting air into the system at the new hose I installed.

Why did you initially change the pump?

On the original pump, the threads in the output shaft stripped and broke loose about 2/3 of the way into the pump. You couldn't tighten down the output bolt anymore.

Did you replace the strainer filter ?

The old one has a tear in it and I should get the new one today or tomorrow.

Did you use new Kubota O-rings on the fittings?

I went to my John Deere dealer and found new o rings. The nearest Kubota dealer is 2.5 hours away.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Coleman Equipment is in kansas and they deliver.

I would get the 4 O-rings and even though I don't think the hose is the issue you can get the right hose from them too.

And when you reinstall make sure all surfaces are clean (use brake parts cleaner), in one photo the top of the pump was very dirty, before you tightened the banjo bolt, that in itself is enough to make it not seal properly.

 

[jrslick]

Well I ordered the wrong new filter, I hate it when you screw up ordering parts. I ordered the one for the Hydrostat version of this tractor. I also ordered all the "O" rings, I will get them tomorrow (since they are so close, ground delivery is same as overnight).

The pump was cleaned up after messing with it for a long time trying to get it to fit. I am hoping new "O" rings and filter will fix the issue.