B7100 Hydraulic pump swaps

[Janthony]

Looking to change my pump. Can't find a replacement for Gp3127C 8x0 wandering was it was replace by another number? Or will other pumps work

 

[torch]

Reportedly, one from a B8200 will work and provide increased flow -- however, the B8200 had two different pumps in different years. The one that will work is the direct drive version, NOT the gear drive version.

For part numbers and a possible third party source, see this thread:

www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27454

 

[HomesteadOC]

Is your B7100 the HST-D model? Thats what I have and I really want to upgrade to a pump with increased flow at 4+gpm.

 

[torch]

Is your B7100 the HST-D model? Thats what I have and I really want to upgrade to a pump with increased flow at 4+gpm.

Yeah, mine is a 1994 HST-D. However, I strongly recommend you don't go by my experience just yet. Remove your own pump and verify which way it turns before ordering anything.

Based on reports and part numbers in various threads, I thought I would need the left-hand version. I bought the left-hand pump and discovered I need the right hand one. I should have removed my pump and physically verified which way it turns before ordering instead of trying to go by cross-reference numbers. With the pump off, I can see that the pump drive on my tractor rotates opposite to the direction of engine rotation.
edit: as noted below, I was wrong, the pump does in fact rotate in the same direction as the engine. Given that my pump rotates in the same direction as the engine, it seems certain that the cross-reference is wrong, and the pump I bought would only work with a gear drive.

There are 3 possible reasons why I ended up with the wrong pump:

1. The cross reference might be wrong. All direct drive pumps turn opposite to the engine rotation.

2. All B7100 HST-D tractors might reverse the direction of rotation, just like a B8200 with gear driven pump.

3. Just mine rotates in reverse. This is possible as the P.O. replaced the engine with a low-hours used one from a loader. (Apparently the original threw a rod after it was out of warranty). He was told it was the same model engine, and I don't think the replacement engine is different because the hard hydraulic lines all align without any signs they were modified, but... ???

Theoretically, this pump should provide 6 to 6.5 gpm at the same RPM as the original (which delivers just under 3gpm). It is deeper than the original, but should just fit between the engine and fuel filter. It looks like the existing pipe will need a slight bend to line up with the pump outlet (the inlet has a rubber section at either end so that is no issue.) Whitehouse is currently out of stock on the right-hand pumps, so I'm waiting on them and can't confirm these details just yet.

If you do in fact need a left-hand pump, I can offer you a good deal on a new, unused one! But please, physically check your existing pump rotation first.

 

[torch]

For reference, here's some photos. First, the left hand pump next to my original:

And the mounting point on my particular engine:

 

[D2Cat]

Torch, the ears on the new pump look like the extend out too far to allow it to mount up. Like the mounting flange would interfere with the block. Is it just the picture?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Have you checked the ports as to the banjo bolts fitting?

 

[torch]

In the top picture, the GPO120L is shown with the inlet on top, so those ears would be the same as the original when mounted. If you flip it over, it fits but the inlet is on the bottom.

 

[torch]

Have you checked the ports as to the banjo bolts fitting?

Yes. The larger inlet bolt fits the larger inlet opening and the outlet bolt fits the outlet opening.

The problem is that the openings are on the wrong sides!

 

[torch]

Looking at the fan blades in my 3rd picture made me realize that I'm wrong about which way the engine spins. My pump does rotate in the same direction as the engine. I'll have to edit my earlier post.

 

[HomesteadOC]

Theoretically, this pump should provide 6 to 6.5 gpm at the same RPM as the original (which delivers just under 3gpm). It is deeper than the original, but should just fit between the engine and fuel filter. It looks like the existing pipe will need a slight bend to line up with the pump outlet (the inlet has a rubber section at either end so that is no issue.) Whitehouse is currently out of stock on the right-hand pumps, so I'm waiting on them and can't confirm these details just yet.

If you do in fact need a left-hand pump, I can offer you a good deal on a new, unused one! But please, physically check your existing pump rotation first.

When you say right hand or left hand do you mean the side of the engine its mounted on in relation to the operator? My pump is on the right side, but I havent dug into it too much yet. I was hoping to order a pump with the part numbers like youre warning me against, lol. I guess I need to dig into it more and take some pictures for you guys. Do you have your new pump installed already? Is there a noticeable increase in front loader speed or drive speed from the HST?

 

[torch]

When you say right hand or left hand do you mean the side of the engine its mounted on in relation to the operator?

RH or LH refers to the direction of rotation as viewed from the pump shaft. A RH pump rotates clockwise, like so:

(bearing in mind that the sketch is upside down compared to our tractors -- the inlet on the B7100 is on the top and outlet on the bottom, so the driver would be on the right, next to the block).

No, I don't have it mounted yet, as I don't have the correct pump. At the moment, they are out of stock of the RH version. Once they get some in, I will be getting one and trying it out. I expect the loader will cycle twice as fast at a given rpm, at least when unloaded. And I expect I will have to throttle way down when using the forks ;-)

 

[twomany]

RH or LH refers to the direction of rotation as viewed from the pump shaft. A RH pump rotates clockwise, like so:

(bearing in mind that the sketch is upside down compared to our tractors -- the inlet on the B7100 is on the top and outlet on the bottom, so the driver would be on the right, next to the block).

No, I don't have it mounted yet, as I don't have the correct pump. At the moment, they are out of stock of the RH version. Once they get some in, I will be getting one and trying it out. I expect the loader will cycle twice as fast at a given rpm, at least when unloaded. And I expect I will have to throttle way down when using the forks ;-)

How does loaded or unloaded change your expectations of speed?
A positive displacement pump and an incompressible fluid. Volume vs time should remain constant. Pressure will go up , but that is different.

 

[torch]

How does loaded or unloaded change your expectations of speed?
A positive displacement pump and an incompressible fluid. Volume vs time should remain constant. Pressure will go up , but that is different.

Volume should remain constant provided rpm remains constant. It is possible that the rpm may drop under load. In other words, as the pressure goes up the rpm may go down.

 

[HomesteadOC]

Do I have to remove the pump to find out if its RH or LH? Or do I just see where the outlet is pointing? Will all the pumps for the B7100 and B8200 have the same bolt patterns just different inlet and outlet orientations? And if installed i correctly would flow backwards?
Torch, your explainations are great and I appreciate the diagrams very much.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Do I have to remove the pump to find out if its RH or LH? Or do I just see where the outlet is pointing? Will all the pumps for the B7100 and B8200 have the same bolt patterns just different inlet and outlet orientations? And if installed i correctly would flow backwards?
Torch, your explainations are great and I appreciate the diagrams very much.

The b7100 and the B8200 direct drive are the same, RH Pump.
The B8200 gear box drive is a LH pump.
All B4200, B5200, B5100, B6100, B7000's, B7001's, B7100, and early direct drive B8200, take the same pump as the motors are all the same family.
If you wanted to up the performance of the hydraulic system immensely, you used to be able to only change out the system to the Gear driven unit, So I'm curious if this is going to work, I hope it does.

 

[torch]

The b7100 and the B8200 direct drive are the same, RH Pump.
The B8200 gear box drive is a LH pump.

That would confirm my hypothesis that the cross reference is wrong.

Several years ago, you posted

Sadly I think I know your problem, there is 2 different pumps, one is a direct drive and one is a geared drive.
Direct drive is 67111-76103
Geared drive is 67810-76100
...

Kubota Canada's parts finder lists the 67810-76100 as the pump for the B8200 HST-D -- just like you said.

However, it lists 67111-76100 for the B8200DP. Both diagrams clearly show the gear drive. I can't find any B8200 model diagram that shows a pump without a gear drive on the Canadian site.

Clearly, one of those two diagrams from Kubota are wrong.

I looked up various B7200, B7200, B6200, B20 models, they all show the 67111-76100 as a direct drive in their respective parts diagrams. So I assumed that the B8200DP listing was incorrect. I have found a reference suggesting the 67111-76100 was superseded to 67111-76103. This would be consistent with your original post.

White House Products lists their right hand pump, part number 5P1/41041GPO described as equivalent to "GP0120R 67810-76100". Based on all of the above, I believed that would be the gear drive pump. I now suspect this error is probably based on the error in Kubota's B8200DP listing, and the correct equivalent Kubota part number would be 67111-76100 (or perhaps B67111-76103).

I bought their part number 5P1/41040GPO -- an identical but left-hand version also listed for the Kubota B8200, listed as equivalent to "GPO120L" but without any Kubota part number. I now believe this is the one that should be labelled as equivalent to Kubota's 67810-76100

So I'm curious if this is going to work, I hope it does.

You and me both, brother!

Do I have to remove the pump to find out if its RH or LH? Or do I just see where the outlet is pointing?

That would be the only way to be dead certain. Remove the pump and bump the starter to see which way the drive tang turns. But I would think that comparing the photos I posted should be sufficient to verify if yours is the same as mine. After all, it is possible that a previous owner already retrofitted yours with a gear drive! If so, you will have some extra hardware not shown in my pictures.

Will all the pumps for the B7100 and B8200 have the same bolt patterns just different inlet and outlet orientations? And if installed i correctly would flow backwards?

It seems that way. Of course, the inlet and outlets are two different sizes so while the wrong pump will mate up with the block and drive tang, banjo bolts won't fit the inverted openings. But one was to re-pipe the inlet pipe to the bottom and vise-versa so the bolts fit up then yes, the flow would be backwards. Briefly. Then I suspect the pump would be quickly destroyed by lack of lubrication.

At this point, I suggest you wait until I've verified that this will work. WHP indicates they have 80 of these pumps on order, so the shortage is only temporary. I promise to take lots of pictures. ;-)

 

[twomany]

Can that pump be reassembled to flow the correct direction?

Some pumps can, The inner housing needs to be correctly oriented if the reconfiguration is possible. Along with the end plates of course.

There are some on-line "how toos" I'm not sure reconfiguration is possible or desirable with your pump. But something that would add to the knowledge base.

 

[torch]

Can that pump be reassembled to flow the correct direction?

I wish, but no. The bolt pattern holding the pump together is asymmetrical. None of the bolt holes would align if the body was rotated 180° to the ends.

 

[torch]

WHP indicates they have 80 of these pumps on order, so the shortage is only temporary. I promise to take lots of pictures. ;-)

WHP sent me an e-mail indicating the pumps will be arriving in "3 - 4 months"! Must be on the slow boat from China...