To Ballast or not to Ballast-That is The Question

[Tractor NUG]

Good morning folks,
I will try not to get too wordy but I have searched the site and see there are scattered posts here and there about ballast, but no dedicated thread. There are helpful opinions both supporting the need to use rear ballast boxes/rear mounted weight, as well as just as many suggesting it is not necessary. Since this seems to be a very debatable subject, I was hoping folks could provide their opinions here in a new Thread dedicated to Ballast. Here is the scenario:

I am new to tractors and just got my very first one (as some may have seen). It is B2601- with a loader (LA434), A 63" front mounted snowblower and a 60" HLA Attachments Root Rake/Grapple. (It's awesome - I can't stay off it)

I did a lot of research- internet / dealerships, YouTube etc and when I finally got down to purchasing my equipment, the Dealer suggested I fill the back tires with beet juice- which I did.

As we went through the implements I wanted to purchase, I requested a Ballast Box- the dealer told me I did not need a ballast box. In short, he said the implements are sized to the tractor and its capacities and that normally I should not need any ballast behind the tractor when using the loader or snowblower etc. The rear tires are filled to provide extra weight and stability and short of any odd scenarios, or if I find for example, that I am slipping on steep hills while snowblowing the driveway in the winter, I should not need to put any weight on the back. Hence, he did not try to sell me a ballast box.

Since then I have received some great support and advice from many folks on the forum- many suggesting I need/must put ballast on the rear to offset weight I put on the front. I also consulted my Owner's Manual (as was suggested by one of you) and the manual has very little on ballast and does not spec that it is required or provide any specs on how much etc, but recommends filling the rear tires and that rear ballast should be used temporarily when necessary and then removed from the tractor. It is literally one sentence in the Manual.

In both the Owner's manual and the Loader Manual, they talk about the lift capacity of the loader (maximum weight etc) but neither manual mentions anything about the need to add rear ballast when using the Loader.

I have read the links provided by some of you and comments and at one end of the argument, there is information about the "pivot" point created by weight, and that it should not be put on the front axle (and the absence of ballast behind the rear axle will create this condition), to the other end of the debate in which the opinion was that putting a ballast box behind the rear axle creates undue strain on the rear axle and should not be used.

Just spoke to my excavator this morning. Seized the opportunity and asked him the question, and he told me unequivocally, that I do NOT need to put ballast on the back of the tractor when using the loader etc in the front. He said it was unnecessary and the implements are sized to the tractor. He is a 2nd generation excavator and has various sizes of tractors from small to huge CATs.

My dealer is also a 2nd generation farm equipment outfit and said it was not needed.

So, new guy here and still not sure which view to adopt.

I would love to settle this debate. The forum is open....please share your views
Cheers and thanks!

 

[85Hokie]

After all your research .....all I can say is that your mind is made up!!!

As a teacher, and a math oriented one - I like to look at things like this in a mathematical situation.

DO you need a rear ballast device ???? Absolutely not!!!! Things will work just fine without one!

And yes ....here comes the but, and it is a big butt - pun intended!!!

Take your machine, it weighs about 1600 pounds with nothing on it....no rears loaded, no FEL no nothing........

It will perform well in this situation............

Now the BUT ..........let's add a 600 pound sub-frame loader on it...and a 200 pound bucket (weight from Kubota)

The machine IS DESIGNED for this, no doubt - Kubota engineers have DONE the math! The actual weight on the rear tires....those that should be driving the machine 90% of the time are getting less and less traction in this situation. NOW - let's add a scoop of snow/dirt/gravel/ whatever to the FEL, the BUTT end of this machine is getttttting very light indeed!!!! THAT 600+ pounds of load is cantilevering the rear end!

Here is the math portion of the situation - as we add weight to the situation, the front wheel ARE the fulcrum as you mentioned in your post, but by adding more and more weight to the front end - out 2+ feet out in front of the tires, the load on one end of the lever is gaining huge amounts of weight. The rear end is losing pressure on the ground in DIRECT proportion with every pound placed in or on the FEL.

Now - whoever said that weight on the rear will damage the tractor......well, they are full of 600+ pounds of.......

Now for the meat and potatoes of the situation......

HERE IS YOUR MANUAL .......straight from the horse's mouth - this is the B2601 manual!

The obvious for traction and SAFETY is to add weight to the rear of your machine......in whatever format you want.......

but the bottom line ------------ ADD SOME!!!

 

[Tractor NUG]

Makes sense. I can't argue that one for sure. Lol. But just don't understand why the dealer said it was not necessary and the excavator said it was not needed.

 

[skeets]

NUG, MHO and its just that, You have your tires filled,,GOOD ,, beet juice weighs more than water or anti freeze, Im not sure how much they put in each tire but figure almost 9. something pounds. per gallon. So you most likely have well over a hundred pounds of weight in each tire, so you should be good to go. Remember doing FEL work or snowblower or blade work thee front axel is the pivot point on the tractor as far as weight distribution. And any additional weight in the rear multiply's it self ,think high school geometry.
Again MHO,,a ballast box which has good points as well as some short comings like where do I put it after Im done and what a PIA to hook it back up again,,,,, Should you feel the need for more weight, I would look for wheel weights. And they too have some short comings ,,like Lord forbid having to change a tire to fix a flat,,yes that happens ,, I have found them to be more friendly and the weight is on the ground through the tires and not hanging off the frame thus no load on the tractor components
Im sure other's will chime in and give their opinions and they my friend is how we all learn

 

[D2Cat]

I posted this link on another thread this morning. http://www.moderntiredealer.com/arti...ange-the-rules

Why would the guys you questioned say, "Just spoke to my excavator this morning. Seized the opportunity and asked him the question, and he told me unequivocally, that I do NOT need to put ballast on the back of the tractor when using the loader etc in the front. He said it was unnecessary and the implements are sized to the tractor. He is a 2nd generation excavator and has various sizes of tractors from small to huge CATs.

My dealer is also a 2nd generation farm equipment outfit and said it was not needed."

Ever hear the story about the young married gal who was gathered at her mother's house for Thanksgiving? While in the kitchen the young girl asked her mother why she always cut the ham in half before baking it.

Mother didn't really know, she just always did. She said mom always did. So the young girl goes into the next room and ask her Grandmother why she always cut the ham in half before she baked it...

Grandma said, "Honey that was the size of the pan I had."

Point is, because someone is a 2nd generation (anything) doesn't necessarily make them all knowledgeable. If you don't keep up with things your ideas become obsolete.

Go to a different dealer and ask, bet you get a different answer!

And does your excavator know much about tractors, especially small tractors originally designed for rice patty use? Kubota tractors are built different then the old Case tractors, and for a reason.

Use a tractor with no weight on the back, or in the tires, while using you loader on uneven ground, and soon you will come to a conclusion yourself as you get to the house to change your underwear!

 

[bearbait]

What 85 Hokie said, as far as I'm concerned there is no down side to having the tires loaded. The first time the rear tire comes a foot or 2 off the ground you'll understand.Even with the extra weight always keep the loader as low to the ground as possible, I learned the hard way...nothing nice about the pucker.

 

[russell.still.5]

Well I’m running a M9540 and the capacity of the loader is about 3,300 lbs. With no implement on the rear the back tires will come off the ground when lifting 2,000 lbs. IMO a rear ballistic is necessary to reach max capacity of your loader not to mention the safety factor. I always have a ballast on the rear more for a safety factor than to reach max capacity of a loader.


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[Utopia Texas]

My largest tractor weighs over 9,500 pounds with nothing in the loader.
With a full bucket of wet sand, driving only about 1 mile a hour and running into a shallow depression on one front wheel have lifted the left rear wheel slightly off the ground.
Don't over think the situation.
If you are using the bucket put some counter weight on the rear end even if it is a implement.

 

[Tractor NUG]

Well, you folks are all great _ really appreciate the feedback and your know-how. You were right. All of you.

Appreciate the geometry info as it makes alot of sense (although I wasn't much of an academic) and loved the ham story BTW. Classic. If it were in my house, my Gramma would have only had half the ham cause that was all we could afford back then. But, it would be the best tasting ham you ever ate for sure.

So the mystery is solved. I had a dump truck load of gravel delivered this morning to grade my driveway. And the answer is unequivocally -

YES- I need a ballast box.

Any loads I scooped with the tractor. the tractor worked great- really happy with this machine.

However: when I scooped little loads, I was able to go and dump and everything seemed fine but when I scooped a good size load into the bucket, and was driving over the uneven terrain with the tractor, it became very unstable and one of the rear wheels would lift off the ground as I drove over little bumps almost every time, and I could almost feel like I was lifting in my chair as it bumped along.

Thanks folks. Problem solved. Ballast for sure. Have a great week! I will now. Got lots to load ahead of me.

 

[Ramos]

Glad that you have seen the wisdom in the proceeding posts and tied it into your recent experience with the gravel hauling.

Before you spend bucks on a ballast box, consider any other implement needs you may have. A box scraper could be mighty handy for spreading that gravel and is comparable in weight to the ballast box, if you buy the right one. A pound is a pound. Up to you what form it comes in. Just something to consider.

 

[rkidd]

You absolutely need rear ballast. Alot of people use implements and it might work for them depending on what they are doing. I have a B2650 and thru alot of experimentaion due to I am anal and retired and have time to do it, I found I need 700lbs to do max loader work and keep the tractor planted. l dont have an implement that weighs 700lbs. With a dedicated ballast box, you can set it up so you can do max loader work and keep out of trouble. I also was a heavy equipment operator, and ran cats and all types of equipment, but I sure know with out enough ballast on any type of equipment, you can tip stuff over in a heartbeat before you ever knew what happened!!


View attachment 32102

 

[Tractor NUG]

Glad that you have seen the wisdom in the proceeding posts and tied it into your recent experience with the gravel hauling.

Before you spend bucks on a ballast box, consider any other implement needs you may have. A box scraper could be mighty handy for spreading that gravel and is comparable in weight to the ballast box, if you buy the right one. A pound is a pound. Up to you what form it comes in. Just something to consider.

Good advice- and better use of my $$ I think. Thanks

 

[RCW]

Good advice- and better use of my $$ I think. Thanks

Tire ballast - yes, yes, yes!

I use my boxblade as 3PH ballast also for the reasons mentioned, and need the BB for routine driveway maintenance anyway.

Only problem I've run into is that my BB weighs ~300lbs, and sometimes need a little more weight - maybe 200lbs or so.

In the future I will fashion something with concrete block, steel, or even sandbags for a few more pounds. But it's an occasional need.....

 

[Ramos]

If you get a sturdy box blade and need even more weight back there, suitcase weights are usually pretty easy to hang off the back side.

 

[Kennyd4110]

The John Deere loader manuals cover rear ballast and it's necessity extensively yet the Kubota manuals do not. Seems crazy to me.

Just the mere fact that you've already experienced the rear tire(s) raising should be proof enough to you. Remember also that you front axle pits side to side, so if a rear tires lifts and the bucket is raised, your only inches away from a rollover.

Here is a link to the JD 200cx operators manual as an example: http://manuals.deere.com/omview/OMW54456_19/?tM=HO


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Required Minimum Tractor Ballast

CAUTION: To help prevent the possibility of personal injury or death caused by tractor/loader roll over, DO NOT operate tractor/loader unless it is equipped with proper ballast.

The amount of ballast listed in the chart is the minimum required for normal loader operation. For some operations, additional ballast may be required to maximize stability.

IMPORTANT: When adding ballast, do not exceed maximum tire carrying capacity shown on sidewall.

REQUIRED MINIMUM BALLAST FOR 2210 AND 2305 TRACTORS
Option
Ballast1
1
Fluid-filled rear tires and one wheel weight per wheel and 350 kg (772 lb) of 3-Point Hitch Ballast2
REQUIRED MINIMUM BALLAST FOR 2320, 2520, 2720, 4100, 4110 AND 4115 TRACTORS
1
Fluid-filled rear tires and 350 kg (772 lb) of 3-Point Hitch Ballast2
2
Three rear wheel weights per wheel and 350 kg (772 lb) of 3-Point Hitch Ballast2
If loader is equipped with pallet fork attachment, 85 kg (187 lb) of additional ballast is required.

1 Ballast given is required with minimum rear tread setting.
2 See ADDING BALLAST TO 3-POINT HITCH in this section.

OUO6077,000199F-19-20080201

 

[Tractor NUG]

The John Deere loader manuals cover rear ballast and it's necessity extensively yet the Kubota manuals do not. Seems crazy to me.

Just the mere fact that you've already experienced the rear tire(s) raising should be proof enough to you. Remember also that you front axle pits side to side, so if a rear tires lifts and the bucket is raised, your only inches away from a rollover.

Here is a link to the JD 200cx operators manual as an example: http://manuals.deere.com/omview/OMW54456_19/?tM=HO


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Required Minimum Tractor Ballast

CAUTION: To help prevent the possibility of personal injury or death caused by tractor/loader roll over, DO NOT operate tractor/loader unless it is equipped with proper ballast.

The amount of ballast listed in the chart is the minimum required for normal loader operation. For some operations, additional ballast may be required to maximize stability.

IMPORTANT: When adding ballast, do not exceed maximum tire carrying capacity shown on sidewall.

REQUIRED MINIMUM BALLAST FOR 2210 AND 2305 TRACTORS
Option
Ballast1
1
Fluid-filled rear tires and one wheel weight per wheel and 350 kg (772 lb) of 3-Point Hitch Ballast2
REQUIRED MINIMUM BALLAST FOR 2320, 2520, 2720, 4100, 4110 AND 4115 TRACTORS
1
Fluid-filled rear tires and 350 kg (772 lb) of 3-Point Hitch Ballast2
2
Three rear wheel weights per wheel and 350 kg (772 lb) of 3-Point Hitch Ballast2
If loader is equipped with pallet fork attachment, 85 kg (187 lb) of additional ballast is required.

1 Ballast given is required with minimum rear tread setting.
2 See ADDING BALLAST TO 3-POINT HITCH in this section.

OUO6077,000199F-19-20080201

Yes I was surprised too. Also, very surprised my dealer didn't insist on it. I did read the info you took the time to send me the other day and the article at the link you sent, and did see the Manual excepts that 85Hokie sent yesterday. But was balancing that against my dealer's direction.

To be honest, and perhaps I just misunderstood the manual, but I thought it provided those examples of implements as an FYI as to how much each one weighs but I didn't connect that there was an inferred requirement that I should use them as ballast as it is not explicit in the manual as it is in the John Deere one. I also note that Manual says the 3 pt hitch can take a maximum of 660 lbs.

Anyways bottom line is, as I understand it, in general if I put 400 lbs on the front , I need 400 on the 3 pt hitch. If I put 600 on the front, I need 600 on the 3 pt hitch.

Just glad I didn't get hurt or hurt someone else and didn't roll the tractor. Very important lesson learned.
Cheers and thanks

 

[Kennyd4110]

Just glad I didn't get hurt or hurt someone else and didn't roll the tractor. Very important lesson learned.
Cheers and thanks

Me too!

I commend you for your research, and willingness to keep an open mind.

 

[whiskeymike]

The further back the weight is, the more effective also. So its not really 1:1 I use my bb and my tires are loaded with rimguard. If I ever need more I plan on welding pipe on the bb vertically to drop olympic style weights on. You can usually get a decent deal on them at garage sales if you don't t have any.

 

[RCW]

The further back the weight is, the more effective also.

True - your weight idea is a good one.

Ramos mentioned hanging suitcase weights on a BB - My old JD425 had 6-45 pounders. I always kick myself that I sent all six when I traded it on the Kubota.

But, it did have a front snowblower, and being 2WD, traction would probably be sketchy without all of them.....

 

[procraftmike]

I have 250 lbs of wheel weights that I use on the back wheels of my B7100. I have to remove the weights once in a while. It makes a big difference, traction wise, with and without them. Night and day difference.

You will be much happier and the tractor will be much more capable with some weight on the back end.