Super Winch problem

[keithcoady]

I had another thread going (hydraulic chute) but figured I'd be better starting a new one since this one deals with the super winch on the rear blower.
I have a B7800 Kubota with a E60 Normand snowblower on the rear and it has a super winch mounted to it with a chain to turn the chute.

I've only had the machine for about a month and up until now the winch worked great. Then it blew a fuse and I haven't been able to get it working since.

The previous owner had 10 gauge wire and a 25 amp fuse but it kept blowing the fuse when I tried a new one in it.

So I took the two wires from the winch and tried them on my spare battery and the winch turns fine. I also ran two direct wires to both sides of the battery and it works fine.

I then installed a 30 amp inline fuse and it blows the fuse as soon as I touch the wires to turn the chute.

I had my brother in law check the amperage draw and he said it's only drawing 13 amps so why is it blowing this fuse. He checked the draw at the two wires coming off the motor with the spare battery.

So I'm just wondering if the fact I'm using too light a wire is causing it to draw more amps. We didn't check the draw near the battery as he was stuck for time.

Wolfman in the other thread had suggested that I may need as large as a #2 wire and I think that could be the problem. Although the previous owner had used #10 and it worked fine.

I'm thinking I should get a much heavier wire and also a heavier inline fuse wire and see if that will help.

Question is why did it work fine with 10 gauge and all of a sudden start blowing fuses. Would a lighter wire cause it to draw more amps? I'm not very electrical savvy so any suggestions would be a bonus.

Wolfman - my brother in law suggested to use a heavy wire used for underground electrical. Do you think that is doable?

Stumped in Nova Scotia Canada

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Yes too small of wire will make it draw more amps.

#10 is ok to run it, #8,#6,#4 would be better.
These little winches don't pull a lot of amps until you load them, so the winch might work great 3/4 of the time pulling small amps, then push it a little harder and boom it's pulling more amps, and like I said in the other thread, anywhere up to the 200 amp range.
I said to use a fuse (bad input from me) is also problematic and you would be better off with a circuit breaker, there is already one in the winch protecting it, you just need one to protect the wire.
The breaker size would depend on the wire size, the larger the main wire the larger the breaker you can use safely.

 

[torch]

I then installed a 30 amp inline fuse and it blows the fuse as soon as I touch the wires to turn the chute.

Look for a short in the winch wiring or possibly in the winch itself. Did you do some work on something that could be pinching the positive cable?

It's only blowing the fuse when you attempt to use the on-board battery, which is grounded to the frame that the winch is bolted to. When you use a spare battery, which is not grounded to the rest of the tractor, the fuse is fine. To me that says something is shorted to the frame.

So I'm just wondering if the fact I'm using too light a wire is causing it to draw more amps.

No, if anything the current might drop slightly because of the higher resistance of smaller wire. Voltage will drop with smaller wire, but not current.

The current draw is directly proportional to the work being demanded of the motor. More work requires more power, which draws more current.

If you were using this winch to pull the tractor out of a bog, then you would need to follow the manufacturer's recommendations for that particular size of winch -- a big one might need #2, a small one perhaps #6. To simply rotate a snowblower chute with a small winch, #8 or #10 is probably adequate.

 

[keithcoady]

Thanks guys,

wolfman is this circuit breaker for an automotive application or is it similar to a household circuit breaker? Going the route of the circuit breaker certainly makes sense to me. Sounds like a much safer set up. Going to pick up some heavier wire and try it with a breaker as soon as I can get some free time - not much of that with Christmas around the corner lol

torch - no I didn't change anything other than taking the existing wiring out of the loop and running two direct wires to the spare battery to try and then two direct wires to the on board battery. Works fine both ways until I put in the inline fuse which blows immediately. There is no chance of anything grounding as it is just two new wires with no breaks.

when I'm using the spare battery I don't have it fused, just the two wires off the winch directly onto the battery. Same for the on board battery, tested it without the fuse directly to the on board bat and works fine but when the fuse connected it blows it.

I guess I could try the inline fuse to the wires off the winch and to the spare battery and try that.

how do I check for a short in the winch? It works fine both set ups when direct to the battery, wouldn't it not work if there was a short in the winch?

sorry for all the questions guys, like i said I'm not very electrical savvy.

think i should pick up some heavy wire and a circuit breaker and try that and see what happens.

thanks again

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Thanks guys,

wolfman is this circuit breaker for an automotive application or is it similar to a household circuit breaker?

Yes use an automotive type.
Automotive type circuit breakers are self reset-able, they will reset once they cool down.

 

[keithcoady]

Great thanks so much greatly appreciated

 

[BAP]

I would still suspect you have some ground or short with your winch. Because your winch is mounted to your snowblower, which in turn is mounted to your tractor by metal connections, it becomes part of your tractor's electrical ground system. Even though you ran wires directly from your tractor's battery to the winch, the battery is also grounded to the tractor to complete the circuit for the tractor electrical system. The reason your spare battery hooked up to the winch worked without blowing the fuse was because it was not also grounded to the tractor. I suspect that you have an internal problem with the winch motor causing it to short out. Pull the motor off the winch and make sure it is clean and dry inside. They can be rebuilt at a shop that rebuilds starters and alternators. Before spending a lot of money on heavier wire and circuit breaker I would find out what the real problem is. Try unhitching the snowblower from the tractor and hook the wires up to the tractor and see if it blows the fuse. If it doesn't then you have problems with the motor. Good luck

 

[keithcoady]

BAP - great point, I'll have to try that as soon as I can free up some time over the holidays - gonna be tough with family coming home, etc. but definitely worth a try to confirm a problem with the motor.

Thanks so much

Keith

 

[Tooljunkie]

A replacement winch cant be all that much. But as mentioned its likely a short to ground. Likely will be right inside the winch brush cap. Small truck snow plows using winches usually have a pair of 30 amp breakers wired in parallel. So 60 amps.
Perhaps theres a short in the wiring or a relay is bad, holding ground,creating a short.

 

[torch]

Looking at your other thread, the winch originally caused all the lights to dim when operated. Then you installed a new battery and it started blowing fuses. You replaced wiring (so we know you are not dealing with pinched wires) and bypassed the switch and it continues to blow fuses.

I'm not clear on if it blows fuses as soon as the wiring is connected (with a switch) or just when you try to operate it?

Everything is pointing towards a problem inside the winch motor. Possibly enough carbon dust from brush wear to cause a high-resistance short circuit between the + terminal and the motor frame (and hence, the tractor ground).

The cost of having a professional service the motor is likely more than the cost of a replacement winch. So you really have nothing to lose by disassembling the motor yourself and cleaning out the carbon dust inside. That said, if you've never rebuilt a motor before, there's probably a 50-50 chance you'll damage something in the process and won't be able to get it back together again. In this day and age, these things are built down to a price point and not designed to be rebuildable.

 

[keithcoady]

torch, yes it blows the fuse the second I touch the wires together.

Certainly not worth the effort, time, or money to mess with this any longer. Gonna get a new winch tomorrow. Then I'll have to figure out how to mount it.

Thank you to everyone for responding and helping me out on this one.

This is proving to be an outstanding forum and I am very impressed and overly pleased with the response and knowledge from everyone.

New winch tomorrow Found one with a 50amp circuit breaker

Keith

 

[keithcoady]

oK, I got a 3000lb winch (champion from Canadian tire) and have it mounted to the 3 point snowblower.

question is now how do I connect the cable to the drum. one end is already connected but I need to cut the cable and install a shorter cable and connect the second end to the drum - but how?

I've searched for some pics and diagrams on the winch and there is a small diameter shaft inside the drum with a spring on one end.

It's only going to be used to turn the chute so if I use a cable clamp around the drum would I be ok with that

I'm open to suggestions - there must be others who have done this unless there is another way to connect this to the chute.

thanks again for any and all responses/suggestions

keith

 

[Tooljunkie]

Remove cable from drum,a few wraps and connect to chute with a couple springs for tension.more wraps on drum means more grip. Wont hurt if drum slips from time to time. Also find a canvas bag to cover winch motor. Keep snow off.

 

[torch]

I haven't done it, but I have rigged steering on many outboards and sheeted a few sails over the years. So if I were to do a snowblower chute, I think I wouldn't attach the ends to the drum, I'd attach them to the chute. Something like:

Attach one end to the chute. Make 1 complete turn around the chute then off to the drum.

Take 2 complete turns around the drum, then back to the other side of the chute. Take 1 complete turn around the chute (opposite direction from starting turn). Attach end of cable to chute.

If possible, I'd actually attach a spring to each end of the cable and attach the respective springs to the chute, to maintain tension as the cable stretches.

But that's just my 2¢.

 

[keithcoady]

That's awesome torch thanks so much gonna give that a try hopefully tomorrow
Will let u know how it works out

 

[Tooljunkie]

Springs like the ones used on the old bed frames. Will tolerate some stretch and have decent pull. I have a can full i saved from a bed frame i disassembled.

 

[keithcoady]

So where and how do I connect these springs

Do I connect them on the ends that connect to the chute and the other end to the chute

 

[torch]

So where and how do I connect these springs

Do I connect them on the ends that connect to the chute and the other end to the chute

That was my thought. Put a loop in the cable -- around a small thimble -- and secure the end to the running part with a crimp- or bolt-on clamp. Hook the spring to the loop. Hook the other end of the spring to a "post" (eg: bolt with spacer) or hole on the chute. The post would be preferable, as a hole will wear over time.

 

[keithcoady]

Thanks so much for the replies got the cables and the winch set up will hopefully have time to wire it tomorrow

 

[keithcoady]

Torch, I finally got a chance to get at the winch after the holidays and removed the cable from the winch and wound the cable around the chute and drum as you suggested but the winch doesn't grab the cable it just rotates inside the cable and I can't get it tight enough to make it work.

I tried inserting the cable into the drum clamp (set screw) but can't figure out how to get it to work in both directions

I think i'm making this much more difficult than it should be but it's one of those things that is just driving me nuts and i can't figure it out.

If it matters i have the winch mounted sideways to the chute, so that if i turn the chute all the way to the left the chute opening is facing the winch

Any suggestions before I'm off to the loonie bin