regeneration danger

[ipz2222]

Just finished reading some info on the ford 6.4 power stroke and regeneration. Seems the regen adds extra fuel on the last part of the piston down stroke to get more fire into the exhaust to burn out the soot. This has a tendency to leave more fuel on the cylinder walls which eventually gets down into the oil. Several people had actually had their oil levels go up between oil changes. Just wondering if the same problem happens to the Kubotas. You guys that have them, ck your oil .

 

[sheepfarmer]

Yes it can happen, mentioned in owner's manual that oil level can increase. The likelihood of it increasing goes up if regeneration is interrupted.

 

[Diydave]

Another reason to NOT buy a tier 4 engine... Let's stuff all this soot, down a sock, then every once in a while blow it all out, thereby controlling pollution... Don't make any sense to me, I think VW had the right idea!!!

 

[Tooljunkie]

I still dont get it. X number of gallons of fuel equals x particles of emissions. Urea or def added or particulates burned off is still nasty emissions. Why not put the research into making a more fuel efficient engine or better quality fuel.
I recall an evaporative carburetor, which produced 75 gallons per mile in a v8 engine. Gas doesent evaporate like it used to. Go figure.

 

[nickelplated5s]

Ford allows up to 5% fuel in the oil. I ended up with 12 quarts plus the 15 of oil once....

 

[tcrote5516]

Thanks Obama

I've always believed one day, many, many years from now people will look back on the whole regen Tier4 era and laugh the way we look back on those early medical "cures" that involved shocking people to fix things like back pain.

"Wait, they thought they would do less damage because every so often the engines would needlessly need to be run at high rpm and it would dump a ton of fuel into the system to burn off all the built up stuff that they didn't want to be burned by the engine and released into the atmosphere in the first place"

Not far from:

"They created cash for clunkers to destroy cars/trucks that were already built (with a high carbon footprint in the building process) but got less than 20 mpg so that they could buy another car that took a ton of energy to build all the while automakers were still building/selling trucks that got less then 20 mpg new"

And the parts (except the block) from those cars were resold to keep all the other siblings on the road....you kidding me?

 

[Diydave]

Thanks Obama

I've always believed one day, many, many years from now people will look back on the whole regen Tier4 era and laugh the way we look back on those early medical "cures" that involved shocking people to fix things like back pain.

"Wait, they thought they would do less damage because every so often the engines would needlessly need to be run at high rpm and it would dump a ton of fuel into the system to burn off all the built up stuff that they didn't want to be burned by the engine and released into the atmosphere in the first place"

Not far from:

"They created cash for clunkers to destroy cars/trucks that were already built (with a high carbon footprint in the building process) but got less than 20 mpg so that they could buy another car that took a ton of energy to build all the while automakers were still building/selling trucks that got less then 20 mpg new"

And the parts (except the block) from those cars were resold to keep all the other siblings on the road....you kidding me?

I thought cash for clunkers was for getting all those cars with bummerstickers on them, off the road....

 

[lugbolt]

I haven't heard of it, not in the almost 2 years that the L01's have been out. Regen is done at higher engine RPM, so with it in regen, the engine oil is getting hot-and hot oil is less likely to hold fuel. It will evaporate, not like gasoline, but it will with heat.

Ford trucks aren't running 2500+ RPM minimum when regen is active.

Most of the L01 guys that use their tractor for bush hogging stated that they never even notice it while bush hogging, since RPM is up and load is high, it regen's and you never know it. The guys who idle around a lot, yes, they notice it often. I get that call about 5 times a week "what's these [expletive] lights and beepers in the dash mean?" But none of them have noticed any oil level rising.

 

[Greenhead]

Thanks Obama

Sorry to break it to you but President G.W. signed that law.

 

[Dalroo]

On my '12 RAM with Cummins Diesel, I am told that the oil level will also rise over time due to regen. I haven't measured to confirm, but I will say I change oil more frequently on the Cummins than I have on past vehicles. Unlike other vehicles I've maintained, I change oil in my truck based on the vehicle notifications, and don't track the miles between changes closely. But I am getting change oil messages roughly every 2000 miles. And the oil is DIRTY and THIN!

When pulling a load or working the truck a bit harder, that time is extended as the Cummins, like the Kubota, likes to work harder with higher EGTs, and goes through fewer regen cycles. We pulled our loaded toyhauler (9,500#) up from Texas to the western slope of Colorado, all around, and back a couple of summers ago and the oil change message extended out to about 4,000 miles.

My MX4800 is still relatively new and I am at 26.x hours and no regen yet. From others it looks like the first regen occurs around 30 hours, so I should be getting close. If it will dry out enough for me to finish mowing and start plowing, I will probably hit regen very soon. I hope I've learned a bit from this board, so I do not idle the tractor, and once temps come up from cold start I try to start working as quickly as possible, and keep the RPMs up.

 

[CountryBumkin]

Just finished reading some info on the ford 6.4 power stroke and regeneration. Seems the regen adds extra fuel on the last part of the piston down stroke to get more fire into the exhaust to burn out the soot.

On the trucks and buses I've worked on they all use DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) and the DEF is injected into the exhaust not the engine. I have not seen any light-truck that doesn't use DEF.

However I've been out the business for a while now and these things change fast.
http://www.dieselforum.org/about-clean-diesel/what-is-scr

The early 6.4 injected into exhaust stream http://www.internationalpowerstroke.com/6.4L-emissions.html

Do you have a link to the method you are describing?

BTW
I'm not as familiar with the Tractor world. Do any/all of the big Kubota's use DEF? Okay, well I did find this article - so maybe that answers it: http://farmindustrynews.com/tractors/john-deere-adopts-chemical-after-treatment-final-tier-4-engines

 

[skeets]

Just what is a DEF fluid? I see you have to use it in all the small diesel truck the new ones anyway , but what is it really, I mean they tell me if that tank goes dry the motor goes in to a limp mode,, So Im wondering if your out onthe highway in the middle of no where and it craps couldnt ya just take a wizz in the tank would be the same thing going into the cat,,, yes?

 

[85Hokie]

Just what is a DEF fluid? I see you have to use it in all the small diesel truck the new ones anyway , but what is it really, I mean they tell me if that tank goes dry the motor goes in to a limp mode,, So Im wondering if your out onthe highway in the middle of no where and it craps couldnt ya just take a wizz in the tank would be the same thing going into the cat,,, yes?

Not sure if the wizz in the tank will do it! But they DO SHARE SOME OF THE SAME .....chemicals! Urea being one of them! Nitrogen too....so fill 'er up!

skeets.....

IF'n ya think I typed this .....you are craazzzzy!

you are a better man if you can explain this to me : (thank goodness for cut and paste!)

Diesel exhaust fluid (DEF) from a separate tank is injected into the exhaust pipeline, where the aqueous urea vaporizes and decomposes to form ammonia and carbon dioxide. Within the SCR catalyst, the NO
x are catalytically reduced by the ammonia (NH
3) into water (***8202;H2O) and nitrogen (N
2), which are both harmless; and these are then released through the exhaust.[5]

DEF is a 32.5% solution of urea, (NH
2)
2CO. When it is injected into the hot exhaust gas stream, the water evaporates and the urea thermally decomposes to form ammonia and isocyanic acid:

(NH
2)
2CO ***8594; NH
3 + HNCO
The isocyanic acid hydrolyses to carbon dioxide and ammonia:

HNCO + ***8202;H2O ***8594; CO2 + NH
3
From this point, ammonia, in the presence of oxygen and a catalyst, will reduce nitrogen oxides:

2NO + 2NH3 + ½O2 -> 2N2 + 3H2O and

3NO2 + 4NH3 + 3O2 -> 7/2N2 + 6H20

The overall reduction of NO
x by urea is:

2(NH
2)
2CO + 4NO + O
2 ***8594; 4N
2 + 4***8202;H2O + 2CO2

 

[BAP]

The scary part of all this modern diesels on the road is we now have vehicles that carry diesel fuel and nitrogen to make them run which are also 2 of the components needed to make a simple bomb. So we now have rolling bombs on wheels running all over the country thanks to government regulations.

 

[ShaunRH]

DEF is far better than Regen when it comes to fuel economy and ease of operations. It's cheaper over time.

Regen is a bundle of horse manure packaged up and sold as brownies. "No additive costs!" that's because all the lost fuel economy would pay for your DEF requirement costs 2x over!

Regen is done because it's a mechanical process and a service departments dream once out of warranty. All those extra parts, chambers, wrappings, etc. require maintenance.

DEF is a simple atomizer injector just after the CAT on most exhaust systems. It supposedly bonds with the carbon and other elements blah, blah, blah...

It's all bad, but to me, all vehicles should be DEF. Farm equipment should be exempt from all this garbage. There just isn't enough of it to be an issue. For every tractor out there plowing a field, there's 40 rigs and 50 pickups.

 

[CountryBumkin]

DEF is far better than Regen when it comes to fuel economy and ease of operations. It's cheaper over time.

Regen is a bundle of horse manure packaged up and sold as brownies. "No additive costs!" that's because all the lost fuel economy would pay for your DEF requirement costs 2x over!

Regen is done because it's a mechanical process and a service departments dream once out of warranty. All those extra parts, chambers, wrappings, etc. require maintenance.

DEF is a simple atomizer injector just after the CAT on most exhaust systems. It supposedly bonds with the carbon and other elements blah, blah, blah...

It's all bad, but to me, all vehicles should be DEF. Farm equipment should be exempt from all this garbage. There just isn't enough of it to be an issue. For every tractor out there plowing a field, there's 40 rigs and 50 pickups.

In my old world of "on highway" trucks, the term "Regen" is still correctly used to describe the process. The Regen just uses DEF in the process. When the Regen time comes the engine needs to running above 2000 rpm (usually this equates to highway speeds) then the process starts and is unnoticeable.

Some trucks (like our "fuel/service truck" and "on/off road" trucks) have a button to cancel the process in case your in tall grass, etc., so the extra heat in the exhaust system during a Regen doesn't catch the grass on fire.

 

[85Hokie]

"There just isn't enough of it to be an issue. For every tractor out there plowing a field, there's 40 rigs and 50 pickups."

more like 4000 rigs to 500 pickups.......trucking is higher now that ever....shortage of drivers and trucks!!!

but the bottom line - the tractor footprint might be there - but small ......

 

[ShaunRH]

In my old world of "on highway" trucks, the term "Regen" is still correctly used to describe the process. The Regen just uses DEF in the process. When the Regen time comes the engine needs to running above 2000 rpm (usually this equates to highway speeds) then the process starts and is unnoticeable.

Some trucks (like our "fuel/service truck" and "on/off road" trucks) have a button to cancel the process in case your in tall grass, etc., so the extra heat in the exhaust system during a Regen doesn't catch the grass on fire.

I was laboring under the idea that DEF was always being injected into the exhaust stream, not as part of a regen process. Could it be different from the larger motored rigs to smaller pickups and cars?

The large international trucks that our Cal Fire service uses out here has the regen process. They can't cancel it. If they get called out to a fire and the vehicle calls for a regen, they have to pull off to the side of the road, call for another fire engine to take their place and wait for the regen to be done. They also have to clear all brush from under the truck and about 5' from the side with the regen cylinder. They'll frequently spray water around the area too to keep the dirt moist. Needless to say, they aren't fans of the regen process or mechanics.

 

[CountryBumkin]

I was laboring under the idea that DEF was always being injected into the exhaust stream, not as part of a regen process. Could it be different from the larger motored rigs to smaller pickups and cars?

The large international trucks that our Cal Fire service uses out here has the regen process. They can't cancel it. If they get called out to a fire and the vehicle calls for a regen, they have to pull off to the side of the road, call for another fire engine to take their place and wait for the regen to be done. They also have to clear all brush from under the truck and about 5' from the side with the regen cylinder. They'll frequently spray water around the area too to keep the dirt moist. Needless to say, they aren't fans of the regen process or mechanics.

CA is a weird place (no offense) - no telling what goes on there. But our fire rescue trucks (in FL) have a cancel button (actually it may be an "okay to initiate Regen" button). It is especially important on a pumper that you can't have engine rpm changing while pumping - however the pumper doesn't have a button, it automatically blocks Regen whenever the pump is engaged.

We had a wildlife truck burn up a few years ago when the driver left it running while stopped off road over a pile of dry timber.

 

[ShaunRH]

CA is a weird place (no offense) - no telling what goes on there. But our fire rescue trucks (in FL) have a cancel button (actually it may be an "okay to initiate Regen" button). It is especially important on a pumper that you can't have engine rpm changing while pumping - however the pumper doesn't have a button, it automatically blocks Regen whenever the pump is engaged.

We had a wildlife truck burn up a few years ago when the driver left it running while stopped off road over a pile of dry timber.

None taken, couldn't agree more. This state is pretty much all the way down the road to whacko-ville.

Yes, since I work for Cal Fire on a regular basis, I've had the regen woes told to me by more than one staff member, lots in fact. They all want the new trucks bundled up and sent back to sit on the Sacramento Capital front lawn as a monument to the morons that legislate climate over safety.