Fixing hole in side of block

[jaxs]

I think you meant "Joe, its not high heat that cracked your cast iron skillet,"

Or he might have meant "Joe,it's not high heat that will crack your cast iron block."
It's stress from uneven expansion/contraction.

 

[joesmith123]

Reflection and observations:

After preheating the cast iron skillet to 400 in the enclosed bbq grill, I ADDITIONALLY hit the cast iron with the acetylene, and I do recall hitting the top part of the cast iron skillet (where the cracks formed) HARD to test the narrative:

"What happens if you hit the cast iron with too much heat?" It will warp

The bottom of th cast iron, I DID NOT hit it as hard with the acetylene, notice the no cracks in the cast iron on the bottom portion, same stress from the cutting wheel

My focus now going away from aiming the flame on the cast iron, aim the flame on the BRONZE because:

That area where the weld held TIGHT after hitting it with hammer, I was aiming the acetylene on the BRONZE, and less so on the cast iron

This was done to test the narrative: "What happens to the bronze if you hit it real hard with the torch?"

The exact sequence I noticed of what the bronze did: First it was a bead circular glob. Then I hit it with the the torch, then it leveled out and melted INTO the cast iron (amazing)

It will turn to flat liquid and bind HARD with the cast iron, which is the goal

Some of yall said it and it is the MOST important factor in getting them to bind:

hit it HARD with the grinding disc EXACTLY where you want the bond, real deep, and have ZERO oil on it including finger oil

Then put the flux on that area and give it a tiny bit of torch to melt it into the cast iron, then

Come in with the bronze rod in the left hand, melt the bronze in that area, then adjust your distance of how you are hitting that bronze with the torch, trying to get it to melt into the cast iron,

you (I) are not aiming the flame on the cast iron, but rather the bronze, trying to give it the RIGHT temperature to bind the cast iron, BUT not too hot to damage the cast iron

Those are reflections for anyone who wants details of observations

Next scheduled experiment: tomorrow morning

Hit everything HARD with grinding wheel and start fresh,

(new step I am adding) grind a nice round even circle into the cast iron where I want the weld to hold, you cant use pens or sharpies because that is an oil, this is the guide to make the circle more perfect

put the skillet in the BBQ grill, preheat to 400 for 15 minutes, use a precise way to glob the flux into your outline, then hit that with some torch until the flux bubbles a bit, THEN

come in with the left hand with the bronze rod, get it melting along your outline, get it hot enough to be liquified but not too hot to damage the cast iron

Goal: build a nice round circle of bronze that holds TIGHT to the cast iron and is not filled with gaps WITHOUT damaging the cast iron

 

[fried1765]

Reflection and observations:

After preheating the cast iron skillet to 400 in the enclosed bbq grill, I ADDITIONALLY hit the cast iron with the acetylene, and I do recall hitting the top part of the cast iron skillet (where the cracks formed) HARD to test the narrative:

"What happens if you hit the cast iron with too much heat?" It will warp

The bottom of th cast iron, I DID NOT hit it as hard with the acetylene, notice the no cracks in the cast iron on the bottom portion, same stress from the cutting wheel

My focus now going away from aiming the flame on the cast iron, aim the flame on the BRONZE because:

That area where the weld held TIGHT after hitting it with hammer, I was aiming the acetylene on the BRONZE, and less so on the cast iron

This was done to test the narrative: "What happens to the bronze if you hit it real hard with the torch?"

The exact sequence I noticed of what the bronze did: First it was a bead circular glob. Then I hit it with the the torch, then it leveled out and melted INTO the cast iron (amazing)

It will turn to flat liquid and bind HARD with the cast iron, which is the goal

Some of yall said it and it is the MOST important factor in getting them to bind:

hit it HARD with the grinding disc EXACTLY where you want the bond, real deep, and have ZERO oil on it including finger oil

Then put the flux on that area and give it a tiny bit of torch to melt it into the cast iron, then

Come in with the bronze rod in the left hand, melt the bronze in that area, then adjust your distance of how you are hitting that bronze with the torch, trying to get it to melt into the cast iron,

you (I) are not aiming the flame on the cast iron, but rather the bronze, trying to give it the RIGHT temperature to bind the cast iron, BUT not too hot to damage the cast iron

Those are reflections for anyone who wants details of observations

Next scheduled experiment: tomorrow morning

Hit everything HARD with grinding wheel and start fresh,

(new step I am adding) grind a nice round even circle into the cast iron where I want the weld to hold, you cant use pens or sharpies because that is an oil, this is the guide to make the circle more perfect

put the skillet in the BBQ grill, preheat to 400 for 15 minutes, use a precise way to glob the flux into your outline, then hit that with some torch until the flux bubbles a bit, THEN

come in with the left hand with the bronze rod, get it melting along your outline, get it hot enough to be liquified but not too hot to damage the cast iron

Goal: build a nice round circle of bronze that holds TIGHT to the cast iron and is not filled with gaps WITHOUT damaging the cast iron

Beginning to look a bit like "pallets in the field" post count.

 

[trevoroni]

The heating of the cast is not to get it to melt anything it gets it up to a temp that makes the added heat needed to get the bronze to flow less of a shock for the cast.
The reason the pan broke the way it did is because you introduced uneven stresses on it when you cut it.

One much more achievable simple result can be achieved by crafting a patch for the block out of mild steel and then use an epoxy like JB weld to bond the two together.
I fact you would need any thing else other than epoxy to fill the hole, because you could dam the back of the hole with tape.
You wouldn't be introducing any more stress to the block and you will be able to achieve a permanent patch, that will out live you or I.

If this was my project I would do just that and I know how to weld, and I know how hard it is to weld cast.

This is what I was thinking as well.
I repaired a hole in a Honda ATC 90 when the chain snapped and broke a hole in the case.
It's held up for the past 11 years now with no issues.

 

[joesmith123]

Whoever said those little tanks are useless was right

Hit cast iron with grinding wheel

Used a cutting disc as outline to trace perfect circle

Used grinding wheel to strip away some cast iron

put skillet in BBQ grill

After 15 minutes, I sprinkled flux along the outline, flux bubbled

Soon as I started the weld, tanks ran out! Bummer


Had to drive for couple hours, landed a deal on massive tanks that have gas in them

Came with both tips, notice how this cutting torch does not have those holes inward like that other one

My theories didn't work: bronze only beading and won't flatten into the groove, did not stick

Hit it again with grinding wheel

Tried again with much more heat, propane and acetylene

Still same problem, Bronze not flattening, only beading

Ran out of bronze rod

The problem: I cannot the bronze to lay flat, all it wants to do is stick to the rod and bead, it will not lay flat, no matter if I hit the cast iron hard with acetylene then come in with the bronze rod, or

if I focus the acetylene on the bronze, still the same exact issue, bronze will not liquify and flatten

No matter what I tried, I cannot get the bronze to sit in the groove

Next experiment: give the cast iron skillet even more propane heat in the bbq grill (450 fahrenheit), use the rods with flux in them instead of separate

Now: go watch videos of how people lay the bronze flat and see if I can improve my method

 

[DustyRusty]

Now that you have 2 larger tanks, keep your eyes open for 2 more. That way when one goes empty, you can grab another full one. Then has the empty exchanged for a full tank, and you will always have one in service and one waiting to go into service. I use the small tanks because they ae easy for me to move around, but if the job requires a lot more thermal muscle, I can always break out my large tanks and spares. I used to keep them in the garage, but now keep them in an outside shed. Much safer in the event of a fire. If you have ever seen one of those tanks in a fire you would understand.

 

[Lil Foot]

Whoever said those little tanks are useless was right

 

[fried1765]

Whoever said those little tanks are useless was right

View attachment 136021

View attachment 136022

Hit cast iron with grinding wheel

View attachment 136023

Used a cutting disc as outline to trace perfect circle

View attachment 136024

Used grinding wheel to strip away some cast iron

View attachment 136025

put skillet in BBQ grill



View attachment 136026

After 15 minutes, I sprinkled flux along the outline, flux bubbled

Soon as I started the weld, tanks ran out! Bummer



View attachment 136027


Had to drive for couple hours, landed a deal on massive tanks that have gas in them



View attachment 136028

Came with both tips, notice how this cutting torch does not have those holes inward like that other one

Don't worry, I'm fixing now to get experimenting and will report back

You need to "figure out" that laying the acetylene tank down (when containing acetylene) is a very BAD idea.

 

[jaxs]

You need to "figure out" that laying the acetylene tank down (when containing acetylene) is a very BAD idea.

While you are at it you need to "figure out" when you ask for advice and some one offers it,don't ignore the advice. Some one with experience said block with hole in side is likly damaged far more serious than having a hole in it. That fact has now been overshadowed by attempts to patch a skillet. After hole is patched you can "figure out" how to line bore using broom handles and a chainsaw.

 

[DustyRusty]

Whoever said those little tanks are useless was right

See if you can trade those tanks for larger ones. The Oxygen tank is usually larger than the acetylene tank

 

[joesmith123]

defeated, I went back and reread all yalls statements

my method was not even close

Watched these clips, generally trying to understand what they are doing and what I am doing wrong

Things I was doing wrong: acetylene flame not even close to being strong enough, bronze melt at 1800, cast iron melt 2200, you need to hit the area hard with acetylene (someone did say you need more flame)

The appearance of what they are doing: they hit an area hard and create a cherry red section, then they come in with the bronze and build up a puddle encompassing the crevices

Those that can weld on cast iron are very talented

Next steps: get more rods from welding shop, try to do what the clips show

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

The third video is not brazing it's using muggy weld rod, muggy weld rod is more of a hard silver solder than a brazing rod.
They are expensive, but work well.

I have tons of brazing rod here all different alloys and flux.
I'll see if I have a piece of cast that I can patch up to show how you can run a weld.
But you are going to need a ton of heat to get the block to weld up, and if your real lucky, not crack into the water jacket.
You will also need to pack the block on sand to let it cool slower than in open air, if you don't your very likely to crack out all of the weld.

I'll say it one more time: Epoxy would be a much smarter, safer, and cheaper way to fix that block.
No possibility of doing more damage!

 

[fried1765]

The third video is not brazing it's using muggy weld rod, muggy weld rod is more of a hard silver solder than a brazing rod.
They are expensive, but work well.

I have tons of brazing rod here all different alloys and flux.
I'll see if I have a piece of cast that I can patch up to show how you can run a weld.
But you are going to need a ton of heat to get the block to weld up, and if your real lucky, not crack into the water jacket.
You will also need to pack the block on sand to let it cool slower than in open air, if you don't your very likely to crack out all of the weld.

I'll say it one more time: Epoxy would be a much smarter, safer, and cheaper way to fix that block.
No possibility of doing more damage!

Unfortunately, repeating your suggestion is unlikely tp be helpful.
Like most of us, I do not think that you completely understand the issue!
Joe,.......just needs to...... "figure it out"!

 

[GreensvilleJay]

I agree with NIW that metal epoxy ( aka JB Weld...) is THE solution for a quick, easy, economical repair.
Can be done in a day and will outlive the next 3 owners.
Have done several small engine blocks as well as gastank for a 58 Austin.

 

[joesmith123]

The third video is not brazing it's using muggy weld rod, muggy weld rod is more of a hard silver solder than a brazing rod.
They are expensive, but work well.

Yes it is amazing how they get it on the cast iron, i.wish I can do that

I'll say it one more time: Epoxy would be a much smarter, safer, and cheaper way to fix that block.
No possibility of doing more damage!

Yes 100% I agree with you and listening

That will most likely happen

This welding detour is NOT about brazing the block, but rather a lesson in metallurgy for myself and whoever is watching

Even if I patched the block with epoxy, I still cannot move the rebuild forward since there is about $1000 in parts needed, including a press to put in new wrist bushings, all the main bearings, gaskets, and I still have to figure out if

I can use the piston assembly from the engine without the hole in it, transfer that into the engine with the hole

Summary: because there are still big purchases that need to happen before putting the engine back together, there is a welding detour happening while I wait to purchase the rest of the parts

Also, there are about 20 welds that I need to do beside this major one, including a major weld on a hinge that holds a heavy post hole digger

Broken weld on heavy duty post hole digger

I need to figure out how to make metal stick together MORE than I need to rebuild these engines

For $50, I got all kinds of bronze rods of different thicknesses and plain/flux coated, you are looking at 5 pounds for practice

Next scheduled experiment: couple hours

Plan: do what those people are doing in the videos I showed yall, I am willing to eviscerate the cast iron trying to get the bronze to stick

Loaded up on Welding gas and rods, I am good to practice without interruption

Only thing missing is good gloves since I am fixing to turn the flame way up on the acetylene

 

[fried1765]

Yes it is amazing how they get it on the cast iron, i.wish I can do that



Yes 100% I agree with you and listening

That will most likely happen

This welding detour is NOT about brazing the block, but rather a lesson in metallurgy for myself and whoever is watching

Even if I patched the block with epoxy, I still cannot move the rebuild forward since there is about $1000 in parts needed, including a press to put in new wrist bushings, all the main bearings, gaskets, and I still have to figure out if

I can use the piston assembly from the engine without the hole in it, transfer that into the engine with the hole

Summary: because there are still big purchases that need to happen before putting the engine back together, there is a welding detour happening while I wait to purchase the rest of the parts

Also, there are about 20 welds that I need to do beside this major one, including a major weld on a hinge that holds a heavy post hole digger

View attachment 136088

Broken weld on heavy duty post hole digger

I need to figure out how to make metal stick together MORE than I need to rebuild these engines

The BEST way to "figure out" how to make metal "stick together" is to take the metal to a professional metal "stick together" guy!

 

[Henro]

The BEST way to "figure out" how to make metal "stick together" is to take the metal to a professional metal "stick together" guy!

Actually, I think that’s the best way to make sure the metal sticks together.

But it’s not the best way to “figure out” how to make the metal stick together with your own hands.

I think I’ve always been a do it myself guy, but there have been times when I paid somebody else to do it. Not a lot, but that’s happened and it will continue to happen in the future. Actually getting older I think it’s gonna be more now than then.

So I get where Joe’s coming from. He wants to learn something as much as he wants to make something happen. I don’t fault him for this at all. Personally, I think it’s a positive attribute. At least as long as time is on your side…

 

[Sidekick]

The BEST way to "figure out" how to make metal "stick together" is to take the metal to a professional metal "stick together" guy!

I think it's best to take a night class at your local BOCES or college for basics for something like welding if you didn't learn them from your dad growing up.

 

[joesmith123]

But it’s not the best way to “figure out” how to make the metal stick together with your own hands.

Right? I would have responded if I wasn't repeating myself

Personally, I think it’s a positive attribute. At least as long as time is on your side…

Get this detail, I am fixing to give up everything until I can "figure out" how to make metal stick together, everything else on hold

I see it as the closest thing to magic

think it's best to take a night class at your local BOCES or college

Zero chance. If people are paid to teach you, they are there by force and cannot teach you anything legally and literally.

We are at one of the greatest schools available to us, this forum. People volunteering information not by force is the ONLY way to learn.

Greenville Jay being able to braze cast iron and him giving his 2 cents is greater than all schools.

Greenville Jay is more talented than all billionaires

I am sure there are others on here that can also braze cast iron and the same narrative applies to them

 

[fried1765]

I think it's best to take a night class at your local BOCES or college for basics for something like welding if you didn't learn them from your dad growing up.

BINGO !!!!!
Though Joe prefers to ignore wise suggestions, and apparently believes that HE can reinvent the wheel