Magicman
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
M4900 Utility Special 4WD e/w FEL & 1530 John Deere "Traveling Man"
Zero Turn Mower
- Thread starter Tornado
- Start date
lawn mowers have been my bread and butter for coming up on 29 years.
Kohler powered equipment keeps me in business
I won't own another mower that has a Kohler. Kawasaki only, or diesel. Preferably diesel.
I still have/use a ZG127S, kohler powered zero turn 54". It's a light duty mower with a heavy built deck. About 400 hours or so on it (I bought it used) and it's done well for me, but I've had to to put 2 starters on it and fix several oil leaks, typical of Kohler (they are known for it). I put a new engine on it when I got it, it developed an oil leak (common kohler problem) and the owner wasn't an oil checker; I don't think they were a checker of anything based on the mower's condition. Runs fine. Noisy (another kohler trait) but plenty of power. Fuel thirsty but that's comparing to the old diesel G1900 that I had (run ALL season on a tank of fuel mowing a little under 1.5 acre).
I'm thinking about buying a new one and thinking about a Z421 with a 54". Love those mowers. Kawasaki powered.
I owned a bad boy and a spartan. The spartan is a spinoff of bad boy, per say. The original builder/designer of bad boy split off of the company he started and went out on his own again (spartan), and there's some "other" stuff going on behind the scene too. I don't live too far from him. He was building mowers in his 2 car garage before bad boy came into the picture. Anyway, spartan is a nicer version of bad boy; also more expensive. They share a lot of traits. The bad boy I owned wouldn't turn NEARLY as good as any kubota, period. Like comparing a 3/4 ton pickup to a Mustang, with the Mustang being the kubota. Bad boy tore up a lot of turf trying to get it to turn. The decks cut awesome (48, 54, and 60 specifically), engines are just engines, with Kohler getting a lot of exposure on bad boy stuff, and again, they keep me in business. Lots of oil leaks and lots of starter failures as of lately; shaft breaks off, bendix just lays between the flywheel & starter, bushings fail in the housings, and a slew of other little things. Valve cover leaks. Drain plugs back out. etc, etc. I don't like them if that's not been made obvious yet. Kawasaki is a better engine all the way around. Smoother, quieter, more refined, rare to see one with a non-user induced failure (lack of maintenance....). Briggs? ehh....about the same as Kohler, spend a little more time in the shop but they are a little quieter. Bad boy decks are VERY heavy built, but they skipped a major step in design, ribbing. The top of the deck is like 1/4 or 5/16" thick I think, but it's 100% flat, and over time it bends and/or cracks. Mostly on the 60" but I've seen 48 and 54 do the same things. Deck lift motors fail occasionally but I think they fixed that now (finally). Wiring issues, finally I think fixed (don't see many anymore). I like them but they've got some work to do in order to compete with Kubota. Similar with Spartan. He's got some more work to do in order to properly compete. Spartan is a good looking mower and real comfortable to operate, they just still have a few quirks similar to bad boy. Fix those? Great mower.
Scag? Nope. I sold them for about 4 years. They rarely paid us for any warranty repairs, with every imaginable excuse in the book as to why. So I quit selling them, period. Maybe things have changed, but that was an internal issue that stuck with me over the years. I was pleased with the mowers just not the company in general.
Hustler ain't a lot better. Hustler is a cheap built mower that gets a lot of advertising exposure, similar to bad boy but not at that level. Don't like them. Not at all.
Kohler powered equipment keeps me in business
I won't own another mower that has a Kohler. Kawasaki only, or diesel. Preferably diesel.
I still have/use a ZG127S, kohler powered zero turn 54". It's a light duty mower with a heavy built deck. About 400 hours or so on it (I bought it used) and it's done well for me, but I've had to to put 2 starters on it and fix several oil leaks, typical of Kohler (they are known for it). I put a new engine on it when I got it, it developed an oil leak (common kohler problem) and the owner wasn't an oil checker; I don't think they were a checker of anything based on the mower's condition. Runs fine. Noisy (another kohler trait) but plenty of power. Fuel thirsty but that's comparing to the old diesel G1900 that I had (run ALL season on a tank of fuel mowing a little under 1.5 acre).
I'm thinking about buying a new one and thinking about a Z421 with a 54". Love those mowers. Kawasaki powered.
I owned a bad boy and a spartan. The spartan is a spinoff of bad boy, per say. The original builder/designer of bad boy split off of the company he started and went out on his own again (spartan), and there's some "other" stuff going on behind the scene too. I don't live too far from him. He was building mowers in his 2 car garage before bad boy came into the picture. Anyway, spartan is a nicer version of bad boy; also more expensive. They share a lot of traits. The bad boy I owned wouldn't turn NEARLY as good as any kubota, period. Like comparing a 3/4 ton pickup to a Mustang, with the Mustang being the kubota. Bad boy tore up a lot of turf trying to get it to turn. The decks cut awesome (48, 54, and 60 specifically), engines are just engines, with Kohler getting a lot of exposure on bad boy stuff, and again, they keep me in business. Lots of oil leaks and lots of starter failures as of lately; shaft breaks off, bendix just lays between the flywheel & starter, bushings fail in the housings, and a slew of other little things. Valve cover leaks. Drain plugs back out. etc, etc. I don't like them if that's not been made obvious yet. Kawasaki is a better engine all the way around. Smoother, quieter, more refined, rare to see one with a non-user induced failure (lack of maintenance....). Briggs? ehh....about the same as Kohler, spend a little more time in the shop but they are a little quieter. Bad boy decks are VERY heavy built, but they skipped a major step in design, ribbing. The top of the deck is like 1/4 or 5/16" thick I think, but it's 100% flat, and over time it bends and/or cracks. Mostly on the 60" but I've seen 48 and 54 do the same things. Deck lift motors fail occasionally but I think they fixed that now (finally). Wiring issues, finally I think fixed (don't see many anymore). I like them but they've got some work to do in order to compete with Kubota. Similar with Spartan. He's got some more work to do in order to properly compete. Spartan is a good looking mower and real comfortable to operate, they just still have a few quirks similar to bad boy. Fix those? Great mower.
Scag? Nope. I sold them for about 4 years. They rarely paid us for any warranty repairs, with every imaginable excuse in the book as to why. So I quit selling them, period. Maybe things have changed, but that was an internal issue that stuck with me over the years. I was pleased with the mowers just not the company in general.
Hustler ain't a lot better. Hustler is a cheap built mower that gets a lot of advertising exposure, similar to bad boy but not at that level. Don't like them. Not at all.
I spent a great deal of time researching mowers for my Zoysia Zeon lawn. My biggest concern was side hill ability with still being able turn easily around the many trees. Landed on a ProZ 760s, in love with the machine. Built like an absolute tank! Frame and deck steel thickness is incredible “triple 7ga deck”. Kawa engine that is thirsty as hell, but powers the stout hydros, 60” deck, and belt driven grass collection blower without a sweat.
Drawbacks... expensive and all that steel is heavy! Have to time irrigation for a couple of days of dry before mowing.
The steering wheel is one of only 2 brands I believe that actually has the front beefy wheels tied to the steering wheel and the hydro drives. Works fantastic on side hills.
I demo’d all the major brands, mowed in the bar ditches out in front of the dealers shop, all of them trying to drag the uphill wheel and making a mess.
Went out on a limb on the new ‘commercial’ series cub cadet (not the consumer Home Depot tin can series by any means). Very satisfied with purchase.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Drawbacks... expensive and all that steel is heavy! Have to time irrigation for a couple of days of dry before mowing.
The steering wheel is one of only 2 brands I believe that actually has the front beefy wheels tied to the steering wheel and the hydro drives. Works fantastic on side hills.
I demo’d all the major brands, mowed in the bar ditches out in front of the dealers shop, all of them trying to drag the uphill wheel and making a mess.
Went out on a limb on the new ‘commercial’ series cub cadet (not the consumer Home Depot tin can series by any means). Very satisfied with purchase.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I run 2 high hour Kubota ZD mowers, 3000 hours between them. I really like the fuel consumption and ease of handling diesel, but they come with a larger price tag.
Other zero turns that attract my attention are Ferris and Grasshopper. The older I get, the more I think about a diesel Ferris mower with suspension.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Other zero turns that attract my attention are Ferris and Grasshopper. The older I get, the more I think about a diesel Ferris mower with suspension.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
You seem to, obviously, really dislike Kohler engines here, and group briggs in with them mostly. Based on your post im assuming you were or are a mower dealer, so Id assume you see tons of mowers over the years to back up your claims. I wonder then what you think of Grasshopper? They are the king in my area. All the state crews who maintain right of ways, interstates, etc all run them, all the big time commercial mowing companies here run almost all grasshopper. I know people personally who have smaller mowing operations (4 mowers) who run all grasshopper for years. The thing with grasshopper though is that most all their mowers, if not all of them, sport Kohler and/or Briggs engines. Until your post here, Ive heard nothing but good things about Kohler engines. The local grasshopper dealer here, who is reported to be one of the largest grasshopper dealers in the south east, says the Briggs engines now are perhaps even better than kohler, but he still praises kohler. He has a lot of opposite views that you express here, and he is a well respected dealer here, stands behind and services all he sales etc. I just wonder how two different dealers have such different experiences with Kohler engines. My friend who runs a 4 mower business has run kohler engine grasshoppers for over 20 years, and he has never had any engine trouble with any of them.lawn mowers have been my bread and butter for coming up on 29 years.
Kohler powered equipment keeps me in business
I won't own another mower that has a Kohler. Kawasaki only, or diesel. Preferably diesel.
I still have/use a ZG127S, kohler powered zero turn 54". It's a light duty mower with a heavy built deck. About 400 hours or so on it (I bought it used) and it's done well for me, but I've had to to put 2 starters on it and fix several oil leaks, typical of Kohler (they are known for it). I put a new engine on it when I got it, it developed an oil leak (common kohler problem) and the owner wasn't an oil checker; I don't think they were a checker of anything based on the mower's condition. Runs fine. Noisy (another kohler trait) but plenty of power. Fuel thirsty but that's comparing to the old diesel G1900 that I had (run ALL season on a tank of fuel mowing a little under 1.5 acre).
I'm thinking about buying a new one and thinking about a Z421 with a 54". Love those mowers. Kawasaki powered.
I owned a bad boy and a spartan. The spartan is a spinoff of bad boy, per say. The original builder/designer of bad boy split off of the company he started and went out on his own again (spartan), and there's some "other" stuff going on behind the scene too. I don't live too far from him. He was building mowers in his 2 car garage before bad boy came into the picture. Anyway, spartan is a nicer version of bad boy; also more expensive. They share a lot of traits. The bad boy I owned wouldn't turn NEARLY as good as any kubota, period. Like comparing a 3/4 ton pickup to a Mustang, with the Mustang being the kubota. Bad boy tore up a lot of turf trying to get it to turn. The decks cut awesome (48, 54, and 60 specifically), engines are just engines, with Kohler getting a lot of exposure on bad boy stuff, and again, they keep me in business. Lots of oil leaks and lots of starter failures as of lately; shaft breaks off, bendix just lays between the flywheel & starter, bushings fail in the housings, and a slew of other little things. Valve cover leaks. Drain plugs back out. etc, etc. I don't like them if that's not been made obvious yet. Kawasaki is a better engine all the way around. Smoother, quieter, more refined, rare to see one with a non-user induced failure (lack of maintenance....). Briggs? ehh....about the same as Kohler, spend a little more time in the shop but they are a little quieter. Bad boy decks are VERY heavy built, but they skipped a major step in design, ribbing. The top of the deck is like 1/4 or 5/16" thick I think, but it's 100% flat, and over time it bends and/or cracks. Mostly on the 60" but I've seen 48 and 54 do the same things. Deck lift motors fail occasionally but I think they fixed that now (finally). Wiring issues, finally I think fixed (don't see many anymore). I like them but they've got some work to do in order to compete with Kubota. Similar with Spartan. He's got some more work to do in order to properly compete. Spartan is a good looking mower and real comfortable to operate, they just still have a few quirks similar to bad boy. Fix those? Great mower.
Scag? Nope. I sold them for about 4 years. They rarely paid us for any warranty repairs, with every imaginable excuse in the book as to why. So I quit selling them, period. Maybe things have changed, but that was an internal issue that stuck with me over the years. I was pleased with the mowers just not the company in general.
Hustler ain't a lot better. Hustler is a cheap built mower that gets a lot of advertising exposure, similar to bad boy but not at that level. Don't like them. Not at all.
Daren Todd
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
Massey Ferguson 1825E, Kubota Z121S, Box blade, Rotary Cutter
Your gonna have issues with any brand motor. Some hate Kohler, some hate Briggs. One thing in common is the folks that assemble them.
My kubota zero turn has a 27hp Kohler. I haven't had an issue with the engine yet. It's two years old, and about 80hrs on the clock.
Only issue I've had with mine is safety switches that were covered under a recall.
I service the unit once a year even though it hasn't come close to hitting it's service interval. I change the plugs, fuel filter, as well as air filters at the same time.
I only run non-ethanol gas in it as well.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
My kubota zero turn has a 27hp Kohler. I haven't had an issue with the engine yet. It's two years old, and about 80hrs on the clock.
Only issue I've had with mine is safety switches that were covered under a recall.
I service the unit once a year even though it hasn't come close to hitting it's service interval. I change the plugs, fuel filter, as well as air filters at the same time.
I only run non-ethanol gas in it as well.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
I bought a Craftsman 54" zero turn 7 years ago with a 24HP Kohler. I've changed the oil twice (about due for a third) and the blades once. Oh, and a battery. My only complaint is that it doesn't like to start below 60F. I'm sure I could mess with the carb or whatever but it's almost always above 60 here in TX anyway!
Tornado, you said, "The thing with grasshopper though is that most all their mowers, if not all of them, sport Kohler and/or Briggs engines."
Grasshopper has Kubota gas and Kubota diesel engines available in their larger commercial mowers. We've had three Grasshoppers, all of them had Kubota engines.
Grasshopper has Kubota gas and Kubota diesel engines available in their larger commercial mowers. We've had three Grasshoppers, all of them had Kubota engines.
Yes you are correct and I was aware of this and had just forgot, mostly because I have not been really looking at those higher end models as it is more than I need. Outside of those higher end models though most all the grasshoppers you see are Kohler and Briggs engines. They do not, to my knowledge, have any powered by a Kawasaki engine.
My main point was how odd it is that one dealer praises the engines, while another has a whole list of issues that they are riddled with. This is one reason why I have to invest so much time and energy into research because depending who you ask regarding equipment you seem to get completely opposite answers on the same question, with both individuals supposedly being experts with often years of experience. Often when I drill down past all of this I find that folks really struggle with being objective about things. Perhaps it is just human nature.For example maybe there was one or a couple bad models of kohler engine that had lots of problems, so one person see's that and applies it to ALL kohler engines thereafter, or vice versa. Its like the one guy who hates ford trucks, because he had a 90 something model that the transmission went out in. One particular ford engine can be riddled with defets, while another can be top of the market, but we tend to not see the hips and dips. Ill keep digging. Im leaning more toward holding out another year and not buying one this year, so Ive got al ong time to read and gather information.
If you are concerned about reliability I'd suggest to narrow down your field to your top 10 choices of models and brands and then do an internet search that goes: "Brand Model Common Issues" or "Brand Model Problems" and see what pops up. People love to complain about things that go wrong, so you should be able to see a pattern emerge of common issues and be able to weed out outliers. Something else you'll notice is if there is a sharp drop off of an issue after some time that the company probably corrected the issue in a later iteration of the model.
As far as motor brands go it is probably the same debate that happens with Kubota vs John Deere, Ford vs Chrysler vs Chevy, Toilet paper dispensing over the front vs dispensing out the back. All will have their merits and all will have their problems but at the end of the day having a reputable name means something and companies will do their level best to keep it that way.
As far as motor brands go it is probably the same debate that happens with Kubota vs John Deere, Ford vs Chrysler vs Chevy, Toilet paper dispensing over the front vs dispensing out the back. All will have their merits and all will have their problems but at the end of the day having a reputable name means something and companies will do their level best to keep it that way.
Are you saying TP is suppose to come off the roll in a particular rotation? I wonder how that opinion is formed? Did folks have serious trouble getting the roll to unwind when started wrong?
BigG
Well-known member
Equipment
l2501, FEL, BB, Rotary cutter, rake,spreader, roller, etc. New Holland TL80 A
Why yes there is a right way and a wrong way to place the TP in a traditional TP holder.
The correct way is to install the roll so that the end hangs to the rear of the holder and as you pull off the roll the roll is lifted. Thus the friction is reduced between the cardboard roll and the dispenser rod.
This reduces the chance of a premature tearing of the paper as one dispenses the required length of TP.
I loved college physics. Useful stuff.
Darren Todd takes GOOD care of his mower. I'm familiar with it. Looks nearly brand new. Wish mine looked that nice.
Kohler. In the lower front/right side as you are standing behind the machine, there is a steel drain bolt screwed into the oil pan. 1/2" square head plug. Reach in there and tighten it. They aren't tight from factory (27hp, SV840, etc). They are a source of oil leaks, and burned up engines. Secondly, the sheet metal valve covers. Junk. I've never seen a Kohler vertical twin with sheet metal valve covers that DIDN'T leak at some point; it's just going to happen. Good thing is that they won't generally dump the entire contents of the crankcase when they do leak, just seeps a little onto the exhaust and makes a big mess. The crankshaft gear- tends to "flop around" on the crankshaft, which makes the key flop back and forth which destroys the keyway in the crankshaft and obviously the gear. Kawasaki's are a much tighter fit. Some of the Kohler's will actually crack the gear from flopping around. Nothing you can do about it, it's a design issue. Rods and pistons and heads, cam, lifters all seem to be ok, but like any solid lifter engine requires a valve adjustment periodically. Kohlers are also known for detonation, failed head gaskets, and a slew of other issues. Google all of them.
Briggs? Nasty habit of busting rods, no warning, plenty of oil and oil pressure, you're mowing along and bang, breaks a rod off for no apparent reason. Usually flops around in the crankcase until it jams between something and then it STOPS (immediately) and usually breaks other parts, all happens in milliseconds and nothing you can do about it. They (briggs and scrapiron) also require valve adjustment. On the briggs especially, when the valves get loose (and they will), it makes too much compression because the "bump" on the camshaft isn't tall enough to shove the valve off the seat with the excessive clearance and then the normal complaint is that "it cranks slow"-or takes out the starter (or both).
Kawasaki-rare to see one in the shop for engine problems. Valve adjustment once in a while because they start to get a little noisy, but once adjusted they seem to run smooth and run quiet and run for another lifetime assuming the flywheel screen doesn't get plugged or the air filter doesn't get plugged up, or the owner doesn't tighten the filter clamp properly. Never see them with oil leaks. Never seen rods broken off. One of them, years ago, had a broken camshaft, out of warranty, kawasaki took care of it. Nobody knows why it broke, it was under 50 hours use, 26hp air cooled, owner had all maintenance records which helped. Aside from the ones that have been so severely overheated that plastic parts were melted externally and obviously it will cook the oil and destroy itself, rare to see them. OH I forgot, had a couple that had an issue with the cylinder head rocker arm bolt back out and most of the time it just dropped that cylinder. Remove valve cover, replace the bolt (use loctite), sometimes needs new pushrods, back in service in under an hour's time. One broke the little cast-in locating pin off on the head, it was out of warranty, owner said "fix it"--and I did. No big deal. A lot smoother running than kohler, and a little quieter. Just more refined. Some say they don't have the torque and that is untrue. The liquid cooled versions were known for a bog when you kick the blades on, but that was a function of a lightweight flywheel, so it would drop a few more RPM when placed in a huge load like that as compared to a Kohler with a 30lb flywheel. The liquid cooled versions are nice. I love them, use less fuel and a lot quieter than the air cooled versions.
The ideal engine for any lawn equipment is diesel....main reasoning behind that is because diesel engines are designed (usually) from the get-go to run at full speed/rpm and full load all the time, and use about 2/3 of the fuel as the same HP gas burner. Unfortunately the EPA has destroyed +25hp diesel engines, makes no sense to own one anymore because of the costs to maintain/fix them-especially after the warranty period is up.
Grasshopper is not popular here, a little more expensive than the big name brands. Most folks that are mowing commercially are using kubota, ZG222/ZG227, and now a lot of the Z726's. For a long time they were all diesel kubota's, and the city still buys them to replace their older ZD21/25/28 mowers that are aged out, with thousands of hours on them. They bought two ZD1211's the other day, both 60". The other lawn services are using stand-on's for smaller residential stuff where a ZG222 won't fit. The 222's get little love from lawn service companies, and they're always in a big hurry to get the job done and go to the next one, so they are abused like red-headed step children until something major breaks, maybe twice a season, and usually the lift jackshaft which is a major ordeal to replace on the ZG222/227. They break them because they'll run around with no gauge wheels on the deck so the deck digs into the curbs and whatever else they're bouncing off of. Maybe using the deck for a grader or dozer or whatever they use 'em for. I've watched them and the guys who use them could care less about the equipment; they are minimum wage workers that ride around for 8 hours on a mower if it breaks they get on the "backup" and send the broken one to the shop. Quite frankly, though, it's rare to see them in the shop, couple times a year usually. They are moving to Z726's slowly as the 222's and 227's age out. One of the 222's has about 3500 hours on it, I think the others are a little less; assuming the hour meters still work.
I did commercial lawn work for a little while. It's a hard job. You work for 10-12 hours mowing, then go back to the shop, clean the equipment, remove & sharpen (or replace) the blades, do the tire pressures, check deck level, wash again, and a ton of other stuff, by time you're done you're at 18 hours, get a little eats then a little shuteye, up before daylight and mowing as the sun's coming up. Good money in it but as said you work for it! I rarely had issues out of any of the equipment mainly because I was a two person operation and both of us knew our way around the equipment such that minor and even moderate repairs were done in the field if possible, we didn't pay nobody to do it, we did it ourselves. If anything major, it went back to the shop, grabbed another mower and used it, then fixed the broken one on a rainy day. Never a day off, not even Sundays. 7 days a week from about March through November and even into December with the mulchers and baggers for leaves/needles. I looked forward to winter time and I hate cold. We had a pair of ZG222's both were 48", one was a mulcher the other side discharge. Depending on what customer, some wanted zero clippings and some just wanted the grass knocked down. I had a baby MF tractor with a bush hog but never really used it much in comparison. Had an opportunity to trade up to a hopper but the 222 worked so well that I saw no reason to go into debt again. I ain't doing it no more, the 7 day a week deal just wasn't working for me. I had to have at least Sunday off, at the very least just enough time to go to church and sometimes go to the drag races if I was to get some of the SUnday jobs done the Saturday before. Went back to dealer work. It's still hard work but at least I have a day off, comes with less pay though, and having to put up with a boss that spouts things off before thinking, I think y'all know the type. Beats working on Sunday though and now I've even got Mondays off too which is NICE, can go fishing and be the only soul on the water at least until about 10:00 when the rest of them show up. By then I've usually got a limit anyway. Back to the hopper, I wasn't really that impressed with them, they're built a lot like bad boy in that they're certainly heavy, but I saw a lot of little things that add up. No locknuts on bolts/studs. Not as easy to service in some cases. One model I seen had a manual belt tensioner just like bad boy uses. Use the right spring and no manual adjustment is needed (ala kubota). Deck was similar as well, big flat plate, over time the pulley mount bends the deck. This was and is common with bad boy and spartan. Those decks need a rib welded across them. Think about it if you have a large plate of steel and you grab one end and your buddy grabs the other end, the center of it will bow a little. Grab a piece of sheet metal toward the middle and shake it back and forth, it flexes. After a while, the flex results in cracks. The flex comes from blades that are out of balance. Speaking of which, a GOOD balancer works wonders for all mowers, I finally broke down and bought one, and used it on a 60" bad boy for the test mule. OMG the deck...runs 100x smoother with properly balanced blades, I mean it really makes a difference contrary to what people think, problem is those little wedge things that traditionally "balance" mower blades aren't as good. They'll get you "close" but just government-close. Take a "balanced" blade off of one of those old bench top balancers and put it on a real balancer, and you'll find that it's still off. Even brand new blades are off (which I proved last week on a set of 54" bad boy blades).
Kohler. In the lower front/right side as you are standing behind the machine, there is a steel drain bolt screwed into the oil pan. 1/2" square head plug. Reach in there and tighten it. They aren't tight from factory (27hp, SV840, etc). They are a source of oil leaks, and burned up engines. Secondly, the sheet metal valve covers. Junk. I've never seen a Kohler vertical twin with sheet metal valve covers that DIDN'T leak at some point; it's just going to happen. Good thing is that they won't generally dump the entire contents of the crankcase when they do leak, just seeps a little onto the exhaust and makes a big mess. The crankshaft gear- tends to "flop around" on the crankshaft, which makes the key flop back and forth which destroys the keyway in the crankshaft and obviously the gear. Kawasaki's are a much tighter fit. Some of the Kohler's will actually crack the gear from flopping around. Nothing you can do about it, it's a design issue. Rods and pistons and heads, cam, lifters all seem to be ok, but like any solid lifter engine requires a valve adjustment periodically. Kohlers are also known for detonation, failed head gaskets, and a slew of other issues. Google all of them.
Briggs? Nasty habit of busting rods, no warning, plenty of oil and oil pressure, you're mowing along and bang, breaks a rod off for no apparent reason. Usually flops around in the crankcase until it jams between something and then it STOPS (immediately) and usually breaks other parts, all happens in milliseconds and nothing you can do about it. They (briggs and scrapiron) also require valve adjustment. On the briggs especially, when the valves get loose (and they will), it makes too much compression because the "bump" on the camshaft isn't tall enough to shove the valve off the seat with the excessive clearance and then the normal complaint is that "it cranks slow"-or takes out the starter (or both).
Kawasaki-rare to see one in the shop for engine problems. Valve adjustment once in a while because they start to get a little noisy, but once adjusted they seem to run smooth and run quiet and run for another lifetime assuming the flywheel screen doesn't get plugged or the air filter doesn't get plugged up, or the owner doesn't tighten the filter clamp properly. Never see them with oil leaks. Never seen rods broken off. One of them, years ago, had a broken camshaft, out of warranty, kawasaki took care of it. Nobody knows why it broke, it was under 50 hours use, 26hp air cooled, owner had all maintenance records which helped. Aside from the ones that have been so severely overheated that plastic parts were melted externally and obviously it will cook the oil and destroy itself, rare to see them. OH I forgot, had a couple that had an issue with the cylinder head rocker arm bolt back out and most of the time it just dropped that cylinder. Remove valve cover, replace the bolt (use loctite), sometimes needs new pushrods, back in service in under an hour's time. One broke the little cast-in locating pin off on the head, it was out of warranty, owner said "fix it"--and I did. No big deal. A lot smoother running than kohler, and a little quieter. Just more refined. Some say they don't have the torque and that is untrue. The liquid cooled versions were known for a bog when you kick the blades on, but that was a function of a lightweight flywheel, so it would drop a few more RPM when placed in a huge load like that as compared to a Kohler with a 30lb flywheel. The liquid cooled versions are nice. I love them, use less fuel and a lot quieter than the air cooled versions.
The ideal engine for any lawn equipment is diesel....main reasoning behind that is because diesel engines are designed (usually) from the get-go to run at full speed/rpm and full load all the time, and use about 2/3 of the fuel as the same HP gas burner. Unfortunately the EPA has destroyed +25hp diesel engines, makes no sense to own one anymore because of the costs to maintain/fix them-especially after the warranty period is up.
Grasshopper is not popular here, a little more expensive than the big name brands. Most folks that are mowing commercially are using kubota, ZG222/ZG227, and now a lot of the Z726's. For a long time they were all diesel kubota's, and the city still buys them to replace their older ZD21/25/28 mowers that are aged out, with thousands of hours on them. They bought two ZD1211's the other day, both 60". The other lawn services are using stand-on's for smaller residential stuff where a ZG222 won't fit. The 222's get little love from lawn service companies, and they're always in a big hurry to get the job done and go to the next one, so they are abused like red-headed step children until something major breaks, maybe twice a season, and usually the lift jackshaft which is a major ordeal to replace on the ZG222/227. They break them because they'll run around with no gauge wheels on the deck so the deck digs into the curbs and whatever else they're bouncing off of. Maybe using the deck for a grader or dozer or whatever they use 'em for. I've watched them and the guys who use them could care less about the equipment; they are minimum wage workers that ride around for 8 hours on a mower if it breaks they get on the "backup" and send the broken one to the shop. Quite frankly, though, it's rare to see them in the shop, couple times a year usually. They are moving to Z726's slowly as the 222's and 227's age out. One of the 222's has about 3500 hours on it, I think the others are a little less; assuming the hour meters still work.
I did commercial lawn work for a little while. It's a hard job. You work for 10-12 hours mowing, then go back to the shop, clean the equipment, remove & sharpen (or replace) the blades, do the tire pressures, check deck level, wash again, and a ton of other stuff, by time you're done you're at 18 hours, get a little eats then a little shuteye, up before daylight and mowing as the sun's coming up. Good money in it but as said you work for it! I rarely had issues out of any of the equipment mainly because I was a two person operation and both of us knew our way around the equipment such that minor and even moderate repairs were done in the field if possible, we didn't pay nobody to do it, we did it ourselves. If anything major, it went back to the shop, grabbed another mower and used it, then fixed the broken one on a rainy day. Never a day off, not even Sundays. 7 days a week from about March through November and even into December with the mulchers and baggers for leaves/needles. I looked forward to winter time and I hate cold. We had a pair of ZG222's both were 48", one was a mulcher the other side discharge. Depending on what customer, some wanted zero clippings and some just wanted the grass knocked down. I had a baby MF tractor with a bush hog but never really used it much in comparison. Had an opportunity to trade up to a hopper but the 222 worked so well that I saw no reason to go into debt again. I ain't doing it no more, the 7 day a week deal just wasn't working for me. I had to have at least Sunday off, at the very least just enough time to go to church and sometimes go to the drag races if I was to get some of the SUnday jobs done the Saturday before. Went back to dealer work. It's still hard work but at least I have a day off, comes with less pay though, and having to put up with a boss that spouts things off before thinking, I think y'all know the type. Beats working on Sunday though and now I've even got Mondays off too which is NICE, can go fishing and be the only soul on the water at least until about 10:00 when the rest of them show up. By then I've usually got a limit anyway. Back to the hopper, I wasn't really that impressed with them, they're built a lot like bad boy in that they're certainly heavy, but I saw a lot of little things that add up. No locknuts on bolts/studs. Not as easy to service in some cases. One model I seen had a manual belt tensioner just like bad boy uses. Use the right spring and no manual adjustment is needed (ala kubota). Deck was similar as well, big flat plate, over time the pulley mount bends the deck. This was and is common with bad boy and spartan. Those decks need a rib welded across them. Think about it if you have a large plate of steel and you grab one end and your buddy grabs the other end, the center of it will bow a little. Grab a piece of sheet metal toward the middle and shake it back and forth, it flexes. After a while, the flex results in cracks. The flex comes from blades that are out of balance. Speaking of which, a GOOD balancer works wonders for all mowers, I finally broke down and bought one, and used it on a 60" bad boy for the test mule. OMG the deck...runs 100x smoother with properly balanced blades, I mean it really makes a difference contrary to what people think, problem is those little wedge things that traditionally "balance" mower blades aren't as good. They'll get you "close" but just government-close. Take a "balanced" blade off of one of those old bench top balancers and put it on a real balancer, and you'll find that it's still off. Even brand new blades are off (which I proved last week on a set of 54" bad boy blades).
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appreciate the lengthy reply with lots of detail. There are grasshoppers running around all over the place down here with thousands of hours on them, most all of them running kohler engines. Ive never heard negative things about the kohler engines from anyone here, not even 1 negative, so its surprised to read you have so many horror stories with them. My current zero turn runs the Kohler SV720 engine, and while its one of kohlers cheaper little engines Ive not had any problems with it in the 6 years ive had the mower. Its never leaked oil that Ive never seen, and if Im honest Ive stretched the maintenance on it too thin over the years. Ive probably abused this little mower a little too hard for what it is. Im often in super dusty conditions. the air filter stays nasty. I just did another maintenance the other day on the mower and changed all the filters, air, gas, oil, new oil. The engine has never given me any trouble though. Its the most dependable part of the machine so far. It is loud though. My wood splitter also runs a little 5HP kohler engine as well. So far it has performed well as well *crosses fingers*
Grasshopper has a really strong reputation here. They are regarded as the best mower you can buy nearly. They are also probably the most expensive.
Grasshopper has a really strong reputation here. They are regarded as the best mower you can buy nearly. They are also probably the most expensive.
I also wanted to add, Kohler has many lines of engines. The SV840 mentioned is the courage engine line. Perhaps the Courage line is the issue? I think you have to really be specific when talking about engines and specify the specific line. I wonder lugbolt, are all your poor experiences and failures in the courage engines? Grasshopper for example often uses the Command Pro Kohler engine. My SV720 is the Courage. The courage is, I believe, a lesser engine than the Command pro. This could be the difference perhaps
I've got an 8hp Briggs and Stratton on a Brave logsplitter that must be 25 years old. I can't wear it out! I have a 12HP Lister Petter diesel I'd like to put on it, but not going to until it quits.
With zero turn mowers, often the brand is more popular the closer to the manufacturing plant, and dealer support. So when someone says one brand is more popular in their area, consider that. Because one is not popular does not necessarily mean it's lower quality.
Each person has to do their due diligence based on THEIR needs, funds, dealer support and their willingness to do any service.
With zero turn mowers, often the brand is more popular the closer to the manufacturing plant, and dealer support. So when someone says one brand is more popular in their area, consider that. Because one is not popular does not necessarily mean it's lower quality.
Each person has to do their due diligence based on THEIR needs, funds, dealer support and their willingness to do any service.
RCW
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BX2360, FEL, MMM, BX2750D snowblower. 1953 Minneapolis Moline ZAU
Holds true by me.
Not scientific at all, but appears nearly all of the commercial guys around here use Ferris ZT's. Made just an hour north, and a couple local dealers....
Fully aware of that. My point, to just cut to the chase is that if Kohler engines were so terrible, there would be A LOT of complaints on grasshopper here, because there are thousands of them here, everyone runs them, almost all of them are running kohler engines, yet nothing but huge positive is heard about them. Engines are not failing. The dealer is not backed up with repairs, the delar in fact praises the kohler engines. Im trying to understand how one person says they have a high rate of failure in many areas, and gives good detailed info on the failures he see's, and couple that to what I hear from folks here who are putting thousands of hours on them without issues. If the kohler engines were suffering all the issues talked about in this thread they would not enjoy the praise they currently have here. Thats my point. I realize popularity doesnt equal superior across the land. It does however mean a huge test bed. My step dad runs grasshopper, my neighbor who owns lots of acreage runs grasshopper, my local county maintenance department its all grasshopper, the state boys doing all the interstate and right of ways its all grasshoppers, my co worker who runs a lawn business its grasshopper for 20 years, another co worker runs a grasshopper just for his personal yard, Most all other mowing outfits here have atleast one grasshopper on the trailer. The majority, id say 90% of all those are running kohler engines. I hear nothing but praise from all fronts. Many of these folks are very mechanically inclined and if the engine was crap they would be quick to say so. This is what im working with. Hope that clears that up
With at least another season to think on it I plan to do some more in depth reading. I will go to the big ag show this year again and talk to the mower dealers. Its one ofthe largest ag expo's this side ofthe mississipi and takes place in georgia. All the brands show up and are often ready to make deals and show off their equipment. Its always a good time to window shop tons of brands and models all in one day.
Perhaps the topic is worn out by now, but I still have 2 cents to throw in. I've had all types of lawn tractors and zero-turns. Before i actually managed to make a living wage, I bought cheap - like Briggs and Stratton. The mowers were built cheap as well, meaning no grease fittings, bushings instead of bearings, etc. They may as well been sold by Kleenex.
I moved into zero-turns with Husqvarna. Bad choice - made cheap as well. I may be hard on equipment since nothing seems to last longer than two years for me.
I've had equipment with Kohler engines - and I won't bother getting any more. They simply have never lasted without problems. My best gas equipment implements have all had Kawasaki or Honda engines. Even then, before I wised up and quit using ethanol gas, they lasted longer than B&S or Kohler.
Now, my wife has a John Deere X350 and an LX277. Kawasaki engines on both, but I finally did have to replace the carburetor on the 277. (ethanol gas)
My mower is the Kubota ZD331 - before Tier IV regulations. Bullet proof commercial mower. Worst thing about it is the deck wheels - maybe. I think it has more to do with my setting them for a 2.5" cut and my wife setting it for 2" without adjusting the wheels. Expensive yes, but it has lasted 10 years so far and still cuts strong.
Lately I have heard complaints about Scag and their reliability. When I hear bad things about John Deere, the complainers may be talking about the models sold by Lowes.
I moved into zero-turns with Husqvarna. Bad choice - made cheap as well. I may be hard on equipment since nothing seems to last longer than two years for me.
I've had equipment with Kohler engines - and I won't bother getting any more. They simply have never lasted without problems. My best gas equipment implements have all had Kawasaki or Honda engines. Even then, before I wised up and quit using ethanol gas, they lasted longer than B&S or Kohler.
Now, my wife has a John Deere X350 and an LX277. Kawasaki engines on both, but I finally did have to replace the carburetor on the 277. (ethanol gas)
My mower is the Kubota ZD331 - before Tier IV regulations. Bullet proof commercial mower. Worst thing about it is the deck wheels - maybe. I think it has more to do with my setting them for a 2.5" cut and my wife setting it for 2" without adjusting the wheels. Expensive yes, but it has lasted 10 years so far and still cuts strong.
Lately I have heard complaints about Scag and their reliability. When I hear bad things about John Deere, the complainers may be talking about the models sold by Lowes.
I go through deck wheels on my zd331 72", one or two front sets per season (300 hours or so per season). That's at 3.75" and the wheels adjusted. The big decks just eat gauge wheels on uneven terrain. I buy non-OEM wheels made by Sten on eBay for about $10 each.
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