What were the engineers thinking?

[TheOldHokie]

The whole purpose of manufacturing is to sell a product that competes with other brands in quality, styling, etc., a product that has reasonable reliability, meets government standards and regulations, yet still turn some sort of profit. There is a lot more to it, but that's the very basic idea.

And therein lies many issues for engineering.

Remember they still have to turn a profit. Meaning if a JD of the same size is $5 less expensive, they're gonna cut $7-$10 out somewhere, maybe getting a bolt cheaper from a different supplier or whatever.

So on a loader pin you have a lot of options. The way the 525's are designed is the same as they've been for decades. Bolt through the end of the pin, and it hasn't really been an issue to my knowledge.

I sheared 2 in the space of 40 hours of operation and its pure luck i didn't lose one or both of the pins before I spotted the problem. With that MTBF the design certainly qualifies as inexpensive to manufacture but not "reasonably reliable". The replacement cap screw I put in is shorter and less exposed. The idea of allowing the pin to float was not lost on me and it still free to float axially and radially because the drilled hole in the pin is well oversize. Cotter pins, hairpins, and locking linch pins also crossed my mind. If I have a repeat of the problem I will ditch the bolts altogether and make two new pins with snap ring grooves. As you note - many ways to do the job and some are certainly better than others.

Dan

 

[Pawnee]

Just turned mine over, there was at least 1/2" of exposed bolt out the bottom to bang on stuff.
Seems like round head pins with a cotter pin hole in the other end would be Ok since you guys are saying they need to be a bit loose.

 

[twomany]

One thing I have come to accept is that during manufacturing of any piece of equipment, there are many issues to consider in the final execution.

In the case of retaining pin hole locations on a loader, it could be that drilling the holes required clearence and that orientation made mfg. the most workable option. The same logic could have been applied when welding up the assembly.

Any more, I look at every piece of hardware as a kit. I may need to fulfill the "Some assembly required" notice.

Really no different than adding work lights, a steering wheel spinner, or a holder for the chainsaw.

Whineing takes the fun out of making it the way I want it.

 

[jimh406]

I have a 40 year professional career working with engineers of just about all flavors and I don't believe that characterization for a moment.

I can’t think of why you think that was not a true statement. Well, it’s possible they use the items they design and are too dumb to realize how messed up their designs are. But, it’s more plausible to think they never use them.

Not that it’s a special characteristic of vehicle engineers, software engineers have the same issue. Yes, I was one.

Other fields like Drs/lawyers/plumbers/electricians etc all suffer from the same issue, so it isn’t simply a reflection on engineers.

Back to the OP thought though, I’m not sure why that’s a bad design. I only have 55 hours on mine, but I guess I was lucky that mine was assembled right.

I do wonder what the designers(maybe not really engineers) were thinking that is supposed to keep the nuts on the grader/scraper tight. I was tightening mine every pass or two. Finally decided to red locktite them after they kept getting loose. Yes, I know I’ll have to use heat to get them off and flipped over, but at least, I don’t have to find washers/plow bolts every few passes. I am wondering how long before my rear blade will have the same issue. Oh well, maybe snow won’t loosen up so much or maybe I’ll just red locktite those as well preemptively.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

gee, I've got 'natural' red loctite on my grade blade..seems 60 year old 'iron oxide' works very,very well to keep nuts on bolts.....EVERYTHING is TIGHT !!

Anyone ever see a B&S engine leak along the case halves ? It seems to save a dime,B&S don't use Locktite on the 10 bolts, so after a few hours of gee, vibration and heat, some bolt 'relax', oil weeps out. Their 'cure' is to sell you a kit of a gasket and 10 bolts WITH Locktite on them. won't sell JUST the gasket.....To get the $5 gasket, you have to fork out $50 ,then you have 10 extra bolts....sigh.

 

[Crash277]

gee, I've got 'natural' red loctite on my grade blade..seems 60 year old 'iron oxide' works very,very well to keep nuts on bolts.....EVERYTHING is TIGHT !!

no human can weld better than mother nature and her rust welding!!

 

[Deleted member 47704]

Well I've got 5+ decades in the design/build field and frankly seeing how 'things are built' today really shocks me. Have a good friend ,who was part of the team on the Canadarm project. He quit after being told 'that's not needed'.....from the senior engineers. Well,long story short, 6 months after he left, 'they' decided his way was CORRECT. Have had similar reports from friend at Litton,SPAR and a few other places. While at STELCO, had a senior eng tell me 'No, that's not right..has to be done THIS way'. Well his EGO cost the company about a million Canucks and he never,ever admitted that I was right.
The big problem I see is them relying on 'computer simulations', which frankly don't simulate the Real World' of hot.cold, vibrations, dirt,salt,etc. and very few actually use/operate what they design.

The problem with engineers is you never hear about the good ones.
I worked with engineers from 2 divisions of Litton for years and actually hired one that retired from Litton.He was no idiot has 4 patents.

 

[Crash277]

Something like this?

Dan

Thats a nice looking grapple. the one i have, (HLA) i took the protective cover off and tossed it into the back of the garage. I may end up drilling a hole in it and putting it back on eventually. For some some reason, the lower grease fitting is behind the cover. if it had been drilled and tapped about 1/2' forward on the cylinder i could easily get the grease gun on it without removing the cover.

 

[mikester]

Manufacturing involves engineering AND accounting. Many times its non-technical accountants driving manufacturing decisions.

 

[Deleted member 47704]

Manufacturing involves engineering AND accounting. Many times its non-technical accountants driving manufacturing decisions.

Tell me about it, I owned a machine shop for almost 30 years.
You have know engineering,metrology, metallurgy,programming,CAD, heat treating, finish processes etc
You learn accounting because you can't trust someone outside of manufacturing to understand manufacturing.
Our old accountant was a problem, did not understand the concept of putting money back into the business to stay competitive. Didn't understand that quality cutting tools save you money and is reflected in part quality.
Customer made me an offer I couldn't refuse and closed the doors.

 

[GeoHorn]

My WSM specifically instructs to have those bolts installed loosely to allow the pin some movement.
Hokie, ..perhaps nylock nuts weren’t used by the assembler…?? and a plain nut fell off…??

Engineers can only design things according to the specifications. If the problem isn’t identified, reported, then added to specifications…. (but I get-i…. this seems sorta obvious)…. AND the engineer probably did identify what should be obvious to an operator…so he issued INSTRUCTIONS to be included in the Operator’s Manual …such as Item 10: (but of-course one has to READ and USE the manual for it to be effective): LOL

 

[TheOldHokie]

My WSM specifically instructs to have those bolts installed loosely to allow the pin some movement.
Hokie, ..perhaps nylock nuts weren’t used by the assembler…?? and a plain nut fell off…??

Engineers can only design things according to the specifications. If the problem isn’t identified, reported, then added to specifications…. (but I get-i…. this seems sorta obvious)…. AND the engineer probably did identify what should be obvious to an operator…so he issued INSTRUCTIONS to be included in the Operator’s Manual …such as Item 10: (but of-course one has to READ and USE the manual for it to be effective): LOL
View attachment 64775

The intent and design of the fasteners was obvious from day 1. I am also confident they ALL had nylock nuts on them and did not vibrate loose. I have no quarrel with the basic design but I do have an issue with those on the bottom pins. The bolts were sheared off by ground contact while I was moving and grading fill. Plenty of scrape marks on the paint where they exit the pins to help confirm that. Since I do a lot of that sort of thing I have every expectation it will be a chronic issue if I continue to use the long bolts. So i will take it upon myself to re-engineer the bottom pins on my loader and eliminate those bolts. I dont expect that to be much of a strain.

Dan

 

[B737]

 

[Deleted member 47704]

The intent and design of the fasteners was obvious from day 1. I am also confident they ALL had nylock nuts on them and did not vibrate loose. I have no quarrel with the basic design but I do have an issue with those on the bottom pins. The bolts were sheared off by ground contact while I was moving and grading fill. Plenty of scrape marks on the paint where they exit the pins to help confirm that. Since I do a lot of that sort of thing I have every expectation it will be a chronic issue if I continue to use the long bolts. So i will take it upon myself to re-engineer the bottom pins on my loader and eliminate those bolts. I dont expect that to be much of a strain.

Dan

Replace the pins with the new style pins ,drill and tap a couple holes. yur done

 

[TheOldHokie]

That would be nice but the way the LA525 is welded up makes adding the flanges difficult. Here is a quick and dirty of what I am contemplating. Pin would be retained in the loader arms with two HD external snap rings. I have several mill lengths of 1" 1045 TGP in the rack which is a dead fit in the arms so all I need do is part off to OAL, groove, counterbore, and drill and tap for the grease fitting. Probably 30-45 minutes including setup to make a pair.

Dan

EDIT: This wasn't on the schedule for today but since things got chatty I added it. Here are two new pins ready to be drilled and tapped. About as easy as it gets.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Replace the pins with the new style pins ,drill and tap a couple holes. yur done

Go back and look at the pictures in my first post. I think you will find it's not that simple.

Dan

 

[Deleted member 47704]

Go back and look at the pictures in my first post. I think you will find it's not that simple.

Dan

I see.

 

[Pawnee]

Those are pretty nice Mr. Hokie.
I hope you made enough to share with the whole class.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Those are pretty nice Mr. Hokie.
I hope you made enough to share with the whole class.

Thank you and that can be arranged if there is sufficient interest.

Dan

 

[Chanceywd]

Just a thought about your design. Is the kubota style supposed to limit turning forces on the greased inner area where a change like yours could have the pins turning at the outer points too?