WHAT OIL FOR Z700 TRANS OTHER THAN KUBOTA TRANS OIL ??

[TheOldHokie]

I was at a manufacturer's dealer training (optional training) session, which lasted 8 days (!), we studied lubricants. Not all of it dealt with engine oils, it dealt with certain fluids used in transmissions and gearcases and such in addition. 00 Majority of it dealt with ATV and motorcycle stuff BUT the principles apply to all lubricating fluids. This was an eye-opening class.

Basically a manufacturer can give all the ISO specs, however the vast majority of people wouldn't understand it. MSDS and ISO spec sheets give a lot of information but manufacturers are not required by federal law to give exact specifications or formulations andk they never do. Reason being, keeping it short, trade secrets. Thel actual additive packages that different manufacturers use are often guarded heavily. There were about 80 of us in this class and every single one of us was asked to not disclose some information. And I'm not, I've stuck with that.

Another tidbit. The fluids are often formulated at the same plant that other fluids are formulated at. For instance, let's use PS-4 from Polaris. It may be made at the exact same plant as, using another example, Valvoline (since it's a well-known name). But, we have to keep in mind that PS-4 is made specifically for Polaris equipment, using an additive package that only Polaris engineers and the fluid manufacturer knows about, and it comes out the same door as the cheap $5/quart stuff that you can but at wal-mart. But just because it came out the same door don't mean it's the same stuff, and often it isn't. This was a huge issue with motorcycles that used a wet clutch, where guys were buying Rotalla T6 because even though T6 is expensive, it's still cheaper than Yamalube. Guys with the early R1's were destroying engines. Basically T6 excludes a certain additive that Yamalube has, which helps the wet clutch live. Over time, Rotella does not protect the clutch and the lining gets burnt, it delaminates from the backing, falls down into the pan and plugs up the pickup screen-which usually destroys the engine. I did a number of them before Yamaha was able to put their finger on the problem. We are talking about 2003-ish through 2007 or so. Of course the engine was completely changed in 2009, to a different design, and by then also the owners were starting to understand the issues. Some still didn't care, and that's fine, as I still built a few engines once in a while. They paid my bills, although the early units were great for us techs. Same for the Kawasaki VN1500's eating clutch springs, due to owner neglect and sometimes abuse. There is more to it as to why, but lubricants played a role. If people would use what's recommended and go by the book, lubricant-related failures are drastically reduced. And even better, when a factory rep asks for a fluid analyses, the analysts and the factory reps want to see certain things. If it ain't there or ain't what they want to see, they don't like it any. If it is, and it's documented that you used what's recommended, it becomes an easier process. MUCH easier in my experience. Warranty stuff can be a real bear. And, people often refer back to a certain court decision that suppsedly protects people and manufacturers, as the end-all, but in fact it's not. There is enough vagueness in that set of rulings that it may not help you. You cannot go wrong with OEM stuff. It may cost a little more but that peace of mind is worth the extra cost, at least in my opinion-and my experience.

Does not seem to be a problem with engine oils where the standards are far more complex.

1. API and ILSAC working with OEMs set generic product performance standards
2. Test and measurement standards organizations like ISO, ASTM and DIN worlk with API and OEM to define the test methods used to measure the individual elements of the perfornance standards.
3. Chemical companies like Afton and Lubrizol develop individual and proprietary additive packages designed to meet those individual performance requirements. Things like rust and oxidation inhibitors, pour point depressants, detergents, dispersants, VI modifiers, anti-wear compounds, etc. The list is very long and that additive package development and market is a complex and highly competitive chemical business in and of itself. The products are closely guarded secrets.
4. Those propreitary additive packages are sold to formulators and are the generoc building blocks that formulators mix and match with their choice of base oils to blend finished oils that meet the API and ILSAC specifications.
5. OEMs cite the API, ILSAC, and possibly OEM specifications in their service documents.
6. Equipmwnt owners and operators buy whatever brand name oil they like that meets the cited specifications.

I don't need to understand the specifications for CK-4, SP, or GF4 to buy an ebgine oil that meets that specification. It's clearly printed on the label

So lets get real. The only thing different in the world of hydraulic oils is 5 and 6. Equipment OEMs don't formulate hydraulic oils - they put together a list of standard lubrication industry performance requirements like HM, or HP and solicit bids from formulatiors. Formulatiors are the ones that create the specific recipes. They choose their mix of proprietary additive packages from suppliers like Afton and Lubrizol and combine them wirh base oils from refiners like Shell or Mobil. Product price is a big element in that formulation process. Their engineers then blend and test their "recipes" to demonstrate conformance to the performance.requirements in the OEM solicitation. OEMs then pick a winner and award a contract for a finished oil based primarily on price, slap their brand name on the label, and tell the world its specially formulated just for their equipment. Its a dishonest marketing practice designed to lock end users into OEM branded and supplied lubricants. The only way its going to end is for end users to get educated and put a cork in the Koolaid bottle.

Dan

 

[Daren Todd]

I was at a manufacturer's dealer training (optional training) session, which lasted 8 days (!), we studied lubricants. Not all of it dealt with engine oils, it dealt with certain fluids used in transmissions and gearcases and such in addition. Majority of it dealt with ATV and motorcycle stuff BUT the principles apply to all lubricating fluids. This was an eye-opening class.

Basically a manufacturer can give all the ISO specs, however the vast majority of people wouldn't understand it. MSDS and ISO spec sheets give a lot of information but manufacturers are not required by federal law to give exact specifications or formulations and they never do. Reason being, keeping it short, trade secrets. The actual additive packages that different manufacturers use are often guarded heavily. There were about 80 of us in this class and every single one of us was asked to not disclose some information. And I'm not, I've stuck with that.

Another tidbit. The fluids are often formulated at the same plant that other fluids are formulated at. For instance, let's use PS-4 from Polaris. It may be made at the exact same plant as, using another example, Valvoline (since it's a well-known name). But, we have to keep in mind that PS-4 is made specifically for Polaris equipment, using an additive package that only Polaris engineers and the fluid manufacturer knows about, and it comes out the same door as the cheap $5/quart stuff that you can but at wal-mart. But just because it came out the same door don't mean it's the same stuff, and often it isn't. This was a huge issue with motorcycles that used a wet clutch, where guys were buying Rotalla T6 because even though T6 is expensive, it's still cheaper than Yamalube. Guys with the early R1's were destroying engines. Basically T6 excludes a certain additive that Yamalube has, which helps the wet clutch live. Over time, Rotella does not protect the clutch and the lining gets burnt, it delaminates from the backing, falls down into the pan and plugs up the pickup screen-which usually destroys the engine. I did a number of them before Yamaha was able to put their finger on the problem. We are talking about 2003-ish through 2007 or so. Of course the engine was completely changed in 2009, to a different design, and by then also the owners were starting to understand the issues. Some still didn't care, and that's fine, as I still built a few engines once in a while. They paid my bills, although the early units were great for us techs. Same for the Kawasaki VN1500's eating clutch springs, due to owner neglect and sometimes abuse. There is more to it as to why, but lubricants played a role. If people would use what's recommended and go by the book, lubricant-related failures are drastically reduced. And even better, when a factory rep asks for a fluid analyses, the analysts and the factory reps want to see certain things. If it ain't there or ain't what they want to see, they don't like it any. If it is, and it's documented that you used what's recommended, it becomes an easier process. MUCH easier in my experience. Warranty stuff can be a real bear. And, people often refer back to a certain court decision that suppsedly protects people and manufacturers, as the end-all, but in fact it's not. There is enough vagueness in that set of rulings that it may not help you. You cannot go wrong with OEM stuff. It may cost a little more but that peace of mind is worth the extra cost, at least in my opinion-and my experience.

Had a buddy burn up the clutches in his kawasaki four wheeler by not using the correct oil. If I remember correctly though he used synthetic oil when it first came out and some of the additives bonded to the clutches and burned them up.

 

[TheOldHokie]

WHAT OIL CAN BE USED IN Z700 TRANS OTHER THAN KUBOTA ?

This thread quickly went off the rails and your question never did get answered. I know next to nothing (some might say even less) about these machines but I can research and read so let me have a whack at it.

According to Kubota its a Parker HTG15 intgrated hydraulic transmssion and uses Parker oil not SUDT.

Parker says it comes from the factory filled with their HT 1000 hydrostatic tranmission oil and thats the only thing they promote (notice I did not say recommend).

However the Parker HTG Transmission Service Manual has a bit more to say on the matter:

The manual is the current version from Parker but is "Effective June 2012" so it appears to be a bit older than the current (2020) HTE/HTJ service manual and likely less tainted by the current Parker brand name sales pitch. Lets take a little look at those oils:

Parker GT Blend

Google can't find any reference to it Its represented in the service manual as a 1000 hour oil so presumably its simply been rebranded as Parker HT 1000. Probably reformulated to some degree as well. I am going to conclude it was a similar monograde SAE 40 oil formulated from Group II base stocks and contained little if any VI additives. Basically a conventional AW 120 (ISO HM) type hydraulic oil. A very heavy duty hydraulic oil but not well suited for even mildly cold ambient conditions.

Castrol Syntec 5W50

This is now called Castrol Edgewith Syntec and is a full synthetic multigrade engine oil that you can buy at your local Walmart for about $9 per quart. Its made from high VI base stocks, fortified with VI modifiers, and boasts a viscosity index of 176. A very different animal from the HT 1000 oil Parker is now hawking.

AMSOIL AW ISO 68

This is a monograde AW 48 (SAE 40) hydraulic oil (ISO type HM/HL). Low (106) VI and no claim of synthetic so we can assume conventional Group II/III mineral oil base stocks. Slightly lower KV40/KV100 viscosities but other wise very similar to the Parker oil

SHELL TTF-SB

This is a SAE xxW40 multigrade oil with a VI of 132 and formulated specifically for Hydro-Gear hydrostatic transmissions. Possibly a semi-synthetic base oil formulation. Commonly labeled and sold as either Cub Cadet or Hydro Gear hydrostatic transmission fluid. Again very different from the Parker oil.

OTHER

Now we get really generic. ANY premium synthetic multigrade engine oil with a viscosity equal to or greater than 15W40. Substantially different from the Parker oil but what many of the lawn and garden equipment OEMs specify. Even Hydro Gear acknowledges it in the service (not sales) documentation for thier current product line. They add the requirement that the oil must be SL or newer service class with a zinc content of 1200 PPM or higher.

Now back to the popcorn....

Dan

 

[lugbolt]

Had a buddy burn up the clutches in his kawasaki four wheeler by not using the correct oil. If I remember correctly though he used synthetic oil when it first came out and some of the additives bonded to the clutches and burned them up.

that is exactly what happens. I've done a TON of them, especially the old 300 Bayou (both 4x2 and 4x4). Those clutches were barely adequate for the unit, so they were particularly sensitive. Old girlfriend had one. That's how I met her, she came by the shop and asked me how much to put a clutch in a KLF300B. I said run it by maybe it can be adjusted. Got her to come back, ya know. Ended up putting both clutches in it AND got to take her out to dinner. Really enjoyed hanging out with her, riding ATV's and such, but she done turned cuckoo and I had to let that ship sail!

If it don't say JASO Ma or MA2 on it, it ain't good for wet clutches.

 

[Daren Todd]

that is exactly what happens. I've done a TON of them, especially the old 300 Bayou (both 4x2 and 4x4). Those clutches were barely adequate for the unit, so they were particularly sensitive. Old girlfriend had one. That's how I met her, she came by the shop and asked me how much to put a clutch in a KLF300B. I said run it by maybe it can be adjusted. Got her to come back, ya know. Ended up putting both clutches in it AND got to take her out to dinner. Really enjoyed hanging out with her, riding ATV's and such, but she done turned cuckoo and I had to let that ship sail!

If it don't say JASO Ma or MA2 on it, it ain't good for wet clutches.

That was what my buddy had. The 300 bayou 4x4.