What Government Mandates Save Lives?

GeoHorn

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
M4700DT, LA1002FEL, Ferguson5-8B Compactor-Roller, 10KDumpTrailer, RTV-X900
May 18, 2018
6,040
3,316
113
Texas
Well, being from the past, I think the government mandate that everyone over 18 be drafted and take the risk of going to Vietnam for death or at best disability, saved some lives of those brave enough to escape to the land of our friends to the north.

Myself, I wasn't brave enough, and thought joining the US Coast Guard would save me from South East Asia. Wrong of course, but at least I ended up spending a year in northern Thailand. Rather than on a riverboat protrol in Vietnam, which the Coast Guard did. So it worked out.

Unlike most others, I respect the decisions of those "draft dodgers" that headed north. So I guess that was the affect of one government mandate that saved at least some American lives...maybe at the expense of others that had less courage to resist their government. like me...
Not disagreeing exactly… but I just feel the problem is the conflict to which our gov’t leaders chose to commit our country’s blood and fortune.

I’m personally of the belief there should be 100% mandatory service by all. (There’d be fewer stupid commitments when the electorate has more vested interest in conflicts and we’d have better-trained and educated citizenry, and immigrants would have a price to pay to stay, and the country would enjoy better security.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

jimh406

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
Kubota L2501 with R4 tires
Jan 29, 2021
2,360
1,792
113
Western MT
I’m personally of the belief there should be 100% mandatory service by all.
What is the consequence for those who don't for any reason? Maybe they aren't physically or mentally capable, unfit physically, or conscientious objector.

Are you suggesting they shouldn't be allowed to vote? Not that I'm opposed to that, but maybe we should clean up the voter rolls to only include real people and citizens in the mean time. ;)
 

GeoHorn

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
M4700DT, LA1002FEL, Ferguson5-8B Compactor-Roller, 10KDumpTrailer, RTV-X900
May 18, 2018
6,040
3,316
113
Texas
What is the consequence for those who don't for any reason? Maybe they aren't physically or mentally capable, unfit physically, or conscientious objector.

Are you suggesting they shouldn't be allowed to vote? Not that I'm opposed to that, but maybe we should clean up the voter rolls to only include real people and citizens in the mean time. ;)
There are needs for personnel in gov’t services other than military for conscientious objectors, handicapped, etc. Clearly mental, etc. issues would be handled as they are currently.l Surely you aren’t wanting any freeloaders… ??
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

fried1765

Well-known member

Equipment
Kubota L48 TLB, Ford 1920 FEL, Ford 8N, SCAG Liberty Z, Gravely Pro.
Nov 14, 2019
7,843
5,066
113
Eastham, Ma
Not disagreeing exactly… but I just feel the problem is the conflict to which our gov’t leaders chose to commit our country’s blood and fortune.

I’m personally of the belief there should be 100% mandatory service by all. (There’d be fewer stupid commitments when the electorate has more vested interest in conflicts and we’d have better-trained and educated citizenry, and immigrants would have a price to pay to stay, and the country would enjoy better security.)
BINGO !!!
 

DustyRusty

Well-known member

Equipment
2020 BX23S, BX2822 Snowblower, Curtis Deluxe Cab,
Nov 8, 2015
6,237
4,816
113
North East CT
Not disagreeing exactly… but I just feel the problem is the conflict to which our gov’t leaders chose to commit our country’s blood and fortune.

I’m personally of the belief there should be 100% mandatory service by all. (There’d be fewer stupid commitments when the electorate has more vested interest in conflicts and we’d have better-trained and educated citizenry, and immigrants would have a price to pay to stay, and the country would enjoy better security.)
Damn! One of the few times that I might agree with GeoHorn. Someone, please check to see if it is a full moon or a comet coming our way.
 
  • Haha
  • Love
Reactions: 5 users

D2Cat

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
L305DT, B7100HST, TG1860, TG1860D, L4240
Mar 27, 2014
13,832
5,585
113
40 miles south of Kansas City
100% mandatory would be fine. No exclusions, none. Make it so the politicians have some skin in the game, some of their family.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

armylifer

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
BX1860, FEL, RCK54P MMM, BB1548 Box Scraper, Quick Hitch, Piranha Bar, BX6315
Mar 26, 2013
2,051
784
113
Thurston County, WA
And make it so no one is eligible for public service positions or elected office unless they first served in the armed forces. Let's see how quick our politicians would commit us to senseless no win conflicts then.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: 1 users

jimh406

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
Kubota L2501 with R4 tires
Jan 29, 2021
2,360
1,792
113
Western MT
There are needs for personnel in gov’t services other than military for conscientious objectors, handicapped, etc. Clearly mental, etc. issues would be handled as they are currently.l Surely you aren’t wanting any freeloaders… ??
Well, there are other needs, but are you equating combat or otherwise being in a war zone with doing paperwork stateside? If so, what's the difference between paying taxes and working private vs working for the govt?

Even people working for private companies "pay" for the wars. Maybe it's an education issue for all groups. ;) In WWII, for instance, people that weren't in the military contributed to the war effort by working in factories, for instance.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

torch

Well-known member

Equipment
B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
Jun 10, 2016
2,619
869
113
Muskoka, Ont.
In the COVID-19 thread, someone mentioned that seat belt use can lead to death. If you care to believe the statistics that the government puts out, it indicates that seat belts save more lives than they kill.
I've been a firefighter for more than 35 years now, and attended more than my share of roadside carnage. There is absolutely a huge difference in the injury rate of similar vehicle collisions (note that I don't classify them as "accidents") between today and yesteryear.

It cannot all be attributed to seatbelt use. Nor any other single factor such as side impact beams, crumple zones and airbags. But taken all together today's flimsy plastic cars are demonstrably safer than the steel tanks we used to drive. Where once the vehicle would have a few dents and the occupants would be mush, today the vehicle is a write-off and the recent occupants are usually standing on the shoulder calling their insurance agent.

Do daytime running lights reduce collisions? Maybe (at least between cars). It's not unreasonable to suppose that there are some circumstances were headlights in marginal conditions make a vehicle more visible, and not unreasonable to believe a more visible vehicle is less likely to be overlooked by an inattentive driver from time to time. From a cost-benefit standpoint the case for DRL seems reasonable -- cars already come with headlights, so there's little extra manufacturing cost to keep them turned on all the time.

That said, it is my personal belief that studies conducted at a time when very few vehicles had lights on during the day showed a disproportionate advantage compared to now, when they are lost in a sea of headlights. And I think this has led to an increased hazard to motorcyclists (I've been riding those for half a century). When motorcycles were the only ones with headlights on during the day, they stood out.

It is an interesting question: does the number of car occupants saved outweigh the number of motorcyclists lost? I doubt there is any way to answer the question, since motorcycles have evolved too -- better handling and better brakes over the same period make it more likely the motorcyclist can avoid the inattentive car driver. They've saved my bacon more than once.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

GreensvilleJay

Well-known member

Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
Apr 2, 2019
11,432
4,914
113
Greensville,Ontario,Canada
DRL is a joke here in Ontario. There are LOTS of cars and trucks that don't have them !!! Well, they do but according to the law, ONLY needed to pass the safety inspection to get tag. After that you can legally 'pull the fuse' and run dark...DRL aren't on.

Meanwhile the law says you need the rear license plate lit up at night. Hmm.... shouldn't the cop behind you have 2 working headlights on at night to see YOU ???
 

Bmyers

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
Grand L3560 with LA805 loader, EA 55" Wicked Grapple, SBX72 BB, LP 1272 mower
May 27, 2019
3,293
3,849
113
Southern Illinois
Meanwhile the law says you need the rear license plate lit up at night. Hmm.... shouldn't the cop behind you have 2 working headlights on at night to see YOU ???
If you keep thinking logically, you are going to find a lot of laws that make no sense.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

GreensvilleJay

Well-known member

Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
Apr 2, 2019
11,432
4,914
113
Greensville,Ontario,Canada
According to the 'Inn Act of Upper Canada' or some such(been decades since I saw it....) , if you ride up to an 'INN' for the night, they have to board your horse.
Hmmm I always wanted to stay at a Holiday Inn.........
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

D2Cat

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
L305DT, B7100HST, TG1860, TG1860D, L4240
Mar 27, 2014
13,832
5,585
113
40 miles south of Kansas City
Well, there are other needs, but are you equating combat or otherwise being in a war zone with doing paperwork stateside? If so, what's the difference between paying taxes and working private vs working for the govt?

Even people working for private companies "pay" for the wars. Maybe it's an education issue for all groups. ;) In WWII, for instance, people that weren't in the military contributed to the war effort by working in factories, for instance.
One of the big differences I see is the need for discipline which would be administered by serving, no matter what position the person was to take. Learning to anticipate what may be ahead, decision making, accountability, the list goes on. Those qualities are lacking today in the USA.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

GeoHorn

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
M4700DT, LA1002FEL, Ferguson5-8B Compactor-Roller, 10KDumpTrailer, RTV-X900
May 18, 2018
6,040
3,316
113
Texas
Well, there are other needs, but are you equating combat or otherwise being in a war zone with doing paperwork stateside? If so, what's the difference between paying taxes and working private vs working for the govt?

Even people working for private companies "pay" for the wars. Maybe it's an education issue for all groups. ;) In WWII, for instance, people that weren't in the military contributed to the war effort by working in factories, for instance.
I think, Jim, you have taken a point of view which is outside the intent of my suggestion. Certainly, older people who were unsuitable for military service…. worked in factories. Some younger people did also…who were not fit for military service of the period such as young women. (and those factories profited hugely from that war-time production…. a subject suitable for a separate discussion, IMO.) Our ENEMIES certainly found a way to employ certain groups of people in war-time-production, Heh?**

The military/public service I intended by my earlier suggestion was directed toward young people of military-age… and ability.…who are not already employed in a service of benefit to the Country….. (as opposed to benefit of corporations or primarily only themselves.)

Although there are other ways of developing such a system, …. one scenario which I envision, based upon the world which existed during the time of MY age of military usefulness…. would be:

Upon graduation of High School, every young person not already accepted at an institution of higher-learning or specialized vocation…. would be obligated for 2 years of military service…. or 4 years of alternative public service…(such as Peace Corps, Habitat for Humanity, CCC, or similar, specifically identified activities)…. upon completion of which that person would be awarded tuition-free an identical period of attendance at an institution of higher learning or vocation.
The H.S. graduates who ARE accepted at such institutions, upon completing that activity, would be obligated for an identical amount of time in military or identified pubic-service.
Those graduates who are aimed at still-higher goals (such as medicine, science, law, etc) will owe a similar amount of time toward military/public service in the same profession ….(which would address those needs in the military and public sectors.)

Not only would this help turn the institutions of higher learning back into their claimed goals….(instead of being depositories and training-grounds for millionaire-athletes and playgrounds for spawn-of-the-wealthy)…. it would bring the level of American society up toward the goal of a fine and worthy republic that we all anticipated when we were young and visionary.

I believe this would prove beneficial to the country as well as the individuals who normally are not well oriented at that age-group anyway, and would provide valuable training and discipline and sense of personal worth, not to mention personal training critical to National Security. (Like Switzerland, sending them home with suitable equipment ’to be maintained and regularly inspected for meeting that Security, )

It would not only provide meaningful vocational training for everyone but also help rid the public of downstream defective and aberrant behavior such as vagrancy and homelessness.

Yes, I’m certain such a short description by necessity is simplified….and therefore subject to a knee-jerk response of criticism…. but as my Daddy used to say, “Instead of just criticizing it, …Why don’t you come up with a way to improve it….?..)


** I am also inclined to believe that all legitimate prison populations should be employed in making such institutions self-supporting to get the prison system OFF the tax-dollar and AWAY from the privatized/corporate prison business……and avoid the production of customer-convenience items which compete with private industry retail items….which competes with the private worker who is earning a living. Prisoners who can provide genuine service in any on-going war-time production could be rewarded in “time served” reduction only. But I‘d hate to see this little “asterisk-addendum” to detract from the main topic of discussion.
 
Last edited:

fried1765

Well-known member

Equipment
Kubota L48 TLB, Ford 1920 FEL, Ford 8N, SCAG Liberty Z, Gravely Pro.
Nov 14, 2019
7,843
5,066
113
Eastham, Ma
I think, Jim, you have taken a point of view which is outside the intent of my suggestion. Certainly, older people who were unsuitable for military service…. worked in factories. Some younger people did also…who were not fit for military service of the period such as young women. (and those factories profited hugely from that war-time production…. a subject suitable for a separate discussion, IMO.) Our ENEMIES certainly found a way to employ certain groups of people in war-time-production, Heh?**

The military/public service I intended by my earlier suggestion was directed toward young people of military-age… and ability.…who are not already employed in a service of benefit to the Country….. (as opposed to benefit of corporations or primarily only themselves.)

Although there are other ways of developing such a system, …. one scenario which I envision, based upon the world which existed during the time of MY age of military usefulness…. would be:

Upon graduation of High School, every young person not already accepted at an institution of higher-learning or specialized vocation…. would be obligated for 2 years of military service…. or 4 years of alternative public service…(such as Peace Corps, Habitat for Humanity, CCC, or similar, specifically identified activities)…. upon completion of which that person would be awarded tuition-free an identical period of attendance at an institution of higher learning or vocation.
The H.S. graduates who ARE accepted at such institutions, upon completing that activity, would be obligated for an identical amount of time in military or identified pubic-service.
Those graduates who are aimed at still-higher goals (such as medicine, science, law, etc) will owe a similar amount of time toward military/public service in the same profession ….(which would address those needs in the military and public sectors.)

Not only would this help turn the institutions of higher learning back into their claimed goals….(instead of being depositories and training-grounds for millionaire-athletes and playgrounds for spawn-of-the-wealthy)…. it would bring the level of American society up toward the goal of a fine and worthy republic that we all anticipated when we were young and visionary.

I believe this would prove beneficial to the country as well as the individuals who normally are not well oriented at that age-group anyway, and would provide valuable training and discipline and sense of personal worth, not to mention personal training critical to National Security. (Like Switzerland, sending them home with suitable equipment ’to be maintained and regularly inspected for meeting that Security, )

It would not only provide meaningful vocational training for everyone but also help rid the public of downstream defective and aberrant behavior such as vagrancy and homelessness.

Yes, I’m certain such a short description by necessity is simplified….and therefore subject to a knee-jerk response of criticism…. but as my Daddy used to say, “Instead of just criticizing it, …Why don’t you come up with a way to improve it….?..)


** I am also inclined to believe that all legitimate prison populations should be employed in making such institutions self-supporting to get the prison system OFF the tax-dollar and AWAY from the privatized/corporate prison business……and avoid the production of customer-convenience items which compete with private industry retail items….which competes with the private worker who is earning a living. Prisoners who can provide genuine service in any on-going war-time production could be rewarded in “time served” reduction only. But I‘d hate to see this little “asterisk-addendum” to detract from the main topic of discussion.
Your comments are ALL very worthwhile.
Unfortunately, in today's world,......it is ALL just wishful thinking!
 

Botamon

Well-known member

Equipment
M7060HDC12, John Deere 2020 diesel
Mar 26, 2018
283
512
93
Winnemucca, Nevada
Upon graduation of High School, every young person not already accepted at an institution of higher-learning or specialized vocation…. would be obligated for 2 years of military service…. or 4 years of alternative public service
This is the only part of your dissertation I disagree with.

I believe every young person needs to do their service BEFORE college/trade school. From everything I read and hear, most of the kids these days have no idea what they really want to do when they graduate high school; many go to college because it's what the parents want. They have no idea what they want to study. Consequently we have a huge percentage of kids who go to college and graduate with a degree they're not really happy with...or they don't graduate at all.

Making them do their service immediately out of high school - and experience a bit more of the real world, away from their childhood surroundings - would lead to more mature students with more of an idea of what they wanted to do with the rest of their lives. To my mind, what we call "the greatest generation" came about because of all the guys who served in the military and then went to college on the GI bill afterwards.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

DustyRusty

Well-known member

Equipment
2020 BX23S, BX2822 Snowblower, Curtis Deluxe Cab,
Nov 8, 2015
6,237
4,816
113
North East CT
One of the big differences I see is the need for discipline which would be administered by serving, no matter what position the person was to take. Learning to anticipate what may be ahead, decision making, accountability, the list goes on. Those qualities are lacking today in the USA.
Some of the people who post on these forums are also lacking in those disciplines and qualities. Need I say any more?