Water Softener

[eng1886trk]

I replaced my water softener about 3 years ago and here are a couple things I learned.

If your well water is very hard, many of the box store brands while they say they do, have difficulty removing very high levels of iron.

If your levels are very high, most recommend a dual resin tank set up, so while one is in 're-gen' you are still getting soft water from the other tank. If you have a single tank, you will get hard water until the tank is done doing its regeneration.

The salt storage tank you should never fill more than 3-4 inches above the water line. Even though it is tempting, don't. Yeah, you have to fill it more. The salt pellets can break down and from the limited flow, form a huge block of salt at the bottom and not allow enough salt into the system to clean the resin effectively to prevent iron. (I found that out the hard way when I started getting hard water spots on all my appliances. I had to dig all the salt out, wash the tub out and start over)

My softener is an on demand mechanical softener and uses no power. To adjust my system, I would have to replace the mechanical dial on top. Mine was purchased though a water conditioning company and I installed it myself. They tested the water for free and set everything correctly for me to pick up.

 

[Stmar]

The Hellenbrand is supposedly a premium softener, got it from a water product company that was previously Culligan so not a box store unit. Mine has electronic controls. Interesting about the salt level, our guy said to keep it at least half full, the brine tank only has water in it when it is in the regen cycle. My old one had water all the time so different technology philosophy.
Did a clarity test of the cold water after regen and it looks good. Will continue to monitor and see how the 100 grain and 3 day regen does.

 

[Ladair]

Learned a lot here myself. I have hard water on a 175’ deep well. I have a water care softener. I had to put a filter on it last year as I was getting sand in the toilet tank and the impeller that operated the softener went bad.
It is electric and has a single brine tank. I was told to keep it half full and to date have had no problem with salt getting hard in the bottom. It does keep about 3” or so of water in the brine tank
It regens every 1000 gallons of water and does it at night while we sleep.
This thing is going on 8 years old with no major problems. My neighbor with a deeper well went the Home Depot rout and his has never worked properly.

 

[RCW]

My apologies again for too much detail.
Stmar-hang with it as you planned, and adjust as needed.
Bet it'll come around. Looks like a nice setup.
Good luck!!

Sent from my QTASUN1 using Tapatalk

 

[AndyM]

We are on a well that produces wonderfully clear water but has lots on minerals. No lather in our showers. Some folks around here are flogging "salt free" conditioners. My antenna tells me its snake oil - is there a salt free conditioner that actually works?

 

[RCW]

We are on a well that produces wonderfully clear water but has lots on minerals. No lather in our showers. Some folks around here are flogging "salt free" conditioners. My antenna tells me its snake oil - is there a salt free conditioner that actually works?

The only way I can think of softening salt free is reverse osmosis.
Otherwise, guessing snake oil....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bearbait]

We have a water softener (salt) but I also installed a reverse osmosis for our drinking water.

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B003XELTTG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[AndyM]

OK thanks for the info - I will look a litle closer to see if it's reverse osmosis they are talking about. Didn't think so but...

 

[William1]

I'm kind of confused.
I thought hard/soft water was a Ph issue and not directly related to mineral content. I thought they were two separate problems.
Can anyone school me or point me to a good source to learn?

 

[Stmar]

RCW, never too much detail when you are searching for knowledge so thanks for all your input.
Our old softener was in service for about 20 years.
I have heard of no salt softeners but have never seen consistent stellar reviews but would like to hear from someone that has one.
We also have a reverse osmosis at our kitchen sink for drinking water.
We use Res-Up, an iron out product, additive to our salt/brine. What brand do some of you use to get the iron out? We can only get the Res-Up brand from our water guy or order it on line. Home Depot and Menards have other products but I am not familiar with their brands.
After a couple of days the water seems good/soft/clear, will see how it does between 3 day regens. I assume the only detriment of frequent regens would be salt usage and I will absorb that cost to tweak my system until I get it dialed in to the wife's specs, lol.

 

[RCW]

I'm kind of confused.
I thought hard/soft water was a Ph issue and not directly related to mineral content. I thought they were two separate problems.
Can anyone school me or point me to a good source to learn?

Actually, hard or soft is related to the mineral content alone. Common contributors to hardness in the northeast are calcium, magnesium, iron, and manganese. There can be others based on location and geology.

pH does come into play, since soft water tends to have a lower pH, and can be corrosive to plumbing. Hard water tends to have a higher pH. Soft water is also more prone to pH swings - - guys with home pools can relate if they're chasing the alkalinity of their pool water. Extended chlorination can lower pH over time.

Hard water is much better for you as drinking water, since the water ingested does contribute to your dietary needs for calcium, magnesium, even iron. However, hard water coats pipes, is tough on water heaters, makes laundry and bathing difficult, and can cause staining of fixtures. Hard water binds with the stearates in soaps to cause soap scum. Black staining is manganese, red is iron. Of course, the white stuff is calcium carbonate. Sulphur is more common with hard water that also has iron and manganese.

Iron and manganese also invite iron and manganese bacteria. Same with Sulphur. They're harmless to people, but can cause a jelly-like mass in your well, plumbing, and toilet tanks.

Toilet tanks are the best place to get a handle on your water source's characteristics. I've seen tanks just full of a gelatinous mass of manganese bacteria. Wonder the thing flushed at all! Have seen bath tubs with a powder-like coating after emptied and dried. Best I could figure was a matt of iron bacteria, since didn't dissolve in a couple drops of vinegar.

On the other hand, softening hard water does replace those minerals with sodium. That sodium does contribute to your dietary intake, if blood pressure or heart disease are concerns.

I felt bad at first for providing too much information. I guess since the questions continue, it may not be a bad thing. Stmar made me feel better about that. Wasn't trying to show off....I helped a lot of people with home water problems...it's what I did for a long time and liked it.

I will caution, that chapter of my career was 18 years ago. It was what I did daily, but it was 18 years ago...so I hope I'm remembering correctly. I do routinely interact with my successor, so he helps me jog my memory/experiences.

Any other questions, fire away!!

 

[William1]

Actually, hard or soft is related to the mineral content alone. Common contributors to hardness in the northeast are calcium, magnesium, iron, and manganese. There can be others based on location and geology.

pH does come into play, since soft water tends to have a lower pH, and can be corrosive to plumbing. Hard water tends to have a higher pH. Soft water is also more prone to pH swings - - guys with home pools can relate if they're chasing the alkalinity of their pool water. Extended chlorination can lower pH over time.

Hard water is much better for you as drinking water, since the water ingested does contribute to your dietary needs for calcium, magnesium, even iron. However, hard water coats pipes, is tough on water heaters, makes laundry and bathing difficult, and can cause staining of fixtures. Hard water binds with the stearates in soaps to cause soap scum. Black staining is manganese, red is iron. Of course, the white stuff is calcium carbonate. Sulphur is more common with hard water that also has iron and manganese.

Iron and manganese also invite iron and manganese bacteria. Same with Sulphur. They're harmless to people, but can cause a jelly-like mass in your well, plumbing, and toilet tanks.

Toilet tanks are the best place to get a handle on your water source's characteristics. I've seen tanks just full of a gelatinous mass of manganese bacteria. Wonder the thing flushed at all!

On the other hand, softening hard water does replace those minerals with sodium. That sodium does contribute to your dietary intake, if blood pressure or heart disease are concerns.

I felt bad at first for providing too much information. I guess since the questions continue, it may not be a bad thing. Stmar made me feel better about that.

I will caution, that chapter of my career was 18 years ago. It was what I did daily, but it was 18 years ago...so I hope I'm remembering correctly. I do routinely interact with my successor, so he helps me jog my memory/experiences.

Any other questions, fire away!!

So even if the Ph is away from that 'magical' 7.6, the minerals are still there. See I was thinking just acids/alkalines and not minerals affecting Ph.

I'll use my place for this as it is a question I want to figure out and the only time I have dealt with any of this. So lets say you have a well with copper and iron. You adjust the Ph with Soda Ash. You filter the water with a Big Blue. But you can still have teh minerals in the water that mess with the Ph, right? Does that mean, say you leave the water sit in the pipes for two weeks, the minerals in the pipes will act on the what was a good Ph and cause it to rise (get harder), as the minerals interact with the water?

I've seen the jelly here (only in the toilet tank, the well always looked OK) at my place a few times, but it took ten years to develop/accumulate. I thought it was just algae/mold grossness. I also notice the rubber flapper valve having the edges 'eaten away' but attributed that to age (ten years or so).

I get some of the white stuff but I figured it was the Soda Ash in the water that dried and spotted.

My wife's sink drain has to be cleared every year due to soap scum and hair. It is like dead rats! But I have blamed it on all the soap she uses in the sink.

Is there a 'magic bullet'? Is it worth talking to a 'water pro' and how can I tell if the guy is selling me a bill of goods or really doing right by me?

And you were worried you were providing too much information.

 

[RCW]

William - -

When you say you have a well with copper and iron, does that mean copper and iron in the well water, or a well with copper and iron piping?

I haven't dealt with home water pH adjustment, other than home pools.

Typically a "hard" water is going to have a pH I wouldn't be concerned with. I certainly wouldn't try to raise the pH on a hard water. 7.6 is an okay benchmark, but 7.8 or 8.0 isn't the end of the world for home piping.

With swimming pool chlorination, pH is much more important, as the efficacy of disinfection is very much pH-dependent on that 7.2-7.8 range.

When you say a "Big Blue" filter, what is that? Particulate filter? All the minerals are still there after the filter.

Short story long, I'd be more concerned with leaving soft water in copper piping than hard water.

A good practice is to let the faucet run until water is cold be drawing a glass of water --- flushes the lines of copper, lead, etc.

Also, we always recommended a well system be disinfected on an annual basis. About 1 cup of household bleach to a 5 gallon pail of water (varies by well depth/static water level/drawdown with pump on). Take well cover off, dump it down gently. Run all taps/flush toilets in house until you smell chlorine. Shut them all off and let sit an hour or so. If you have a bad case, you can recirculate from a hose bib/garden hose back to the well head.

Then, flush everything out a hose bib or tub where it doesn't cause issues. Be careful with laundry, especially white clothes, until things settle down. Will take care of the Fe/Mn/S bacteria, etc, along with disinfecting the system.

PRECAUTIONARY STATEMENT: As it's been a while for me, you better google well disinfection to make sure I didn't miss a step (or 3)...or contact your local Health Department........

 

[William1]

William - -

When you say you have a well with copper and iron, does that mean copper and iron in the well water, or a well with copper and iron piping?

I haven't dealt with home water pH adjustment, other than home pools.

Typically a "hard" water is going to have a pH I wouldn't be concerned with. I certainly wouldn't try to raise the pH on a hard water. 7.6 is an okay benchmark, but 7.8 or 8.0 isn't the end of the world for home piping.

With swimming pool chlorination, pH is much more important, as the efficacy of disinfection is very much pH-dependent on that 7.2-7.8 range.

When you say a "Big Blue" filter, what is that? Particulate filter? All the minerals are still there after the filter.

Short story long, I'd be more concerned with leaving soft water in copper piping than hard water.

A good practice is to let the faucet run until water is cold be drawing a glass of water --- flushes the lines of copper, lead, etc.

Also, we always recommended a well system be disinfected on an annual basis. About 1 cup of household bleach to a 5 gallon pail of water (varies by well depth/static water level/drawdown with pump on). Take well cover off, dump it down gently. Run all taps/flush toilets in house until you smell chlorine. Shut them all off and let sit an hour or so. If you have a bad case, you can recirculate from a hose bib/garden hose back to the well head.

Then, flush everything out a hose bib or tub where it doesn't cause issues. Be careful with laundry, especially white clothes, until things settle down. Will take care of the Fe/Mn/S bacteria, etc, along with disinfecting the system.

PRECAUTIONARY STATEMENT: As it's been a while for me, you better google well disinfection to make sure I didn't miss a step (or 3)...or contact your local Health Department........

Copper/iron stains, mostly iron it looks like. Piping is mostly pex/copper/brass.

I was under the impression that Ph also affected how well soaps worked, showering/clothess washer/dish washer.

Big Blue is a standard particulate filter, I believe they come in two sizes. There are a few different media inserts. After one year, there might be about 1/8 of a teaspoon of gritty solids in it, and the media it orange. I change it every time (9 to 10 months) I refill the soda ash tank.

I've read a little about disinfecting the water, never done it. Some have said I can add just a tiny bit (a few tablespoons of chlorine bleach) to the Soda Ash tank (holds 35-50 gallons water/soda ash-35 pounds of soda ash at close to molar concentration) but I want to avoid having a 'city water' quality, I do love the well water, especially in winter, ice cold and crisp tasting.

My well is a shallow one. 24" diameter and I doubt it is more than thirty feet, might even be twenty. The water is only a few feet below ground height. My neighbor had a standard well dug. The pressure shot water 30' in the air. In ten years, he says he has never noticed the well pump at his place kick on.

I'll have to get a better grip on the well disinfecting scheme before I screw it up. That is not a error I want to make and my wife would kill me!

I really appreciate the info and have a 'thirst for knowledge'!