Vernig Grapple Issue

[edritchey]

Maybe you could provide a photo of the 54" grapple mounted on your B2601, I would like to see how much clearance is below the loader arms with the grapple upright.

It should be exactly the same as your's.

 

[lynnmor]

It should be exactly the same as your's.


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I guess that you don't mind the loader arms plowing the dirt, but I do.

 

[edritchey]

I guess that you don't mind the loader arms plowing the dirt, but I do.

I don't use it on turf as a surface rake and I think that's where the problem comes in for some users. You might be better off selling it and getting something else that will work better for your application. I saw some people mention that their EA grapples work for what you're trying to do maybe you'd be better off for one of their products. Mine works great for me and what I planned on using it for. I hope you find one that works well for you.

 

[mcmxi]

Doesn’t this look like the same issue? If the teeth are flat to skim like they would be in this pic then the bottom of the loader arms would be in the dirt as well. To tilt the grapple forward so the arms are clear would create the same grapple digging in problem.

Unless I am seeing this pic wrong or misunderstanding the issue


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That's not your tractor and grapple is it?

The underside of the tines (front) aren't parallel to the floor in that photo. The back of the grapple needs to be vertical or close to it in order for the underside of the tines to be parallel to the ground. If you rotate the grapple forward at least 5 degrees and maybe more, and raise the loader a bit the loader wouldn't make contact with the floor.

 

[Shekkie]

That's not your tractor and grapple is it?

The underside of the tines (front) aren't parallel to the floor in that photo. The back of the grapple needs to be vertical or close to it in order for the underside of the tines to be parallel to the ground. If you rotate the grapple forward at least 5 degrees and maybe more, and raise the loader a bit the loader wouldn't make contact with the floor.

No. I have a different setup. Just looking at the pic the issue seems similar to the OP’s concern. if you rotate it forward then it does get the loader up but then the angle of the tines would tend to make them dig a bit or if not tilted enough then sled over twigs/smaller sticks.

To rake I use the lid to back drag into a pile then pick up what I can with the grapple and hop off and manually finish the cleanup if I’m concerned with not damaging the turf.

I think this may be more a simple case of the wrong tool for the job rather than a poor design.

“Root rakes are designed to pick up bulky, unusually-shaped, or long materials while leaving the soil and small rocks behind. After the large debris is moved, the root rake can also be used to remove roots and other debris from beneath the soil.”

No mention of gently raking a lawn. It is what it is.

 

[mcmxi]

No. I have a different setup. Just looking at the pic the issue seems similar to the OP’s concern. if you rotate it forward then it does get the loader up but then the angle of the tines would tend to make them dig a bit or if not tilted enough then sled over twigs/smaller sticks.

To rake I use the lid to back drag into a pile then pick up what I can with the grapple and hop off and manually finish the cleanup if I’m concerned with not damaging the turf.

I think this may be more a simple case of the wrong tool for the job rather than a poor design.

“Root rakes are designed to pick up bulky, unusually-shaped, or long materials while leaving the soil and small rocks behind. After the large debris is moved, the root rake can also be used to remove roots and other debris from beneath the soil.”

No mention of gently raking a lawn. It is what it is.

If you owned the tractor and grapple in the photo you posted you'd know that the situation isn't the same or similar. The grapple in the photo can be "floated" over the ground without digging in and without the loader arms digging in. I know that because I own and use a similar grapple and tractor.

The OPs issue is that the bottom of the loader arms are in the dirt before the underside of the lower tines make parallel contact with the ground. I understand his desire to "float" the tines over the ground without having them dig in. I can do that with the Wicked 60 on my 1065A loader and it's a root rake grapple so I agree with him that the Vernig is not a good design. I can also see how getting it on and off is a pain.

 

[lynnmor]

If you owned the tractor and grapple in the photo you posted you'd know that the situation isn't the same.

The OPs issue is that the bottom of the loader arms are in the dirt before the underside of the lower tines make parallel contact with the ground. I understand his desire to "float" the tines over the ground without having them dig in. I can do that with the Wicked 60 on my 1065A loader and it's a root rake grapple so I agree with him that the Vernig is not a good design. I can also see how getting it on and off is a pain.

THANK YOU!

 

[mcmxi]

THANK YOU!

I hope Messick's and/or Vernig can help you out. Unfortunately, I don't see an "easy" way to modify your grapple to make it work as it should. You might be better off buying something else and selling the Vernig.

 

[Shekkie]

If you owned the tractor and grapple in the photo you posted you'd know that the situation isn't the same or similar. The grapple in the photo can be "floated" over the ground without digging in and without the loader arms digging in. I know that because I own and use a similar grapple and tractor.

The OPs issue is that the bottom of the loader arms are in the dirt before the underside of the lower tines make parallel contact with the ground. I understand his desire to "float" the tines over the ground without having them dig in. I can do that with the Wicked 60 on my 1065A loader and it's a root rake grapple so I agree with him that the Vernig is not a good design. I can also see how getting it on and off is a pain.

Ok, sorry I posted my opinion and used a pic from the internet of something I do not own to illustrate my observation and even said “seems” implying that I’m not sure.

OP is not gonna accomplish his goal with the EA either. It may float without the loader arms touching the ground and without the tines digging in but then it isn’t picking anything up off the ground either which was the stated goal. No root rake grapple is going to float over the ground with the tines angled to pick stuff up out of the turf without digging in. Maybe it’s a design flaw?

The 1st pic the OP posted shows the grapple being set just about right for what I’d expect a root grapple to be used for in ground engagement and clean up. The loader arms aren’t digging in. It’s fine. I tilt the tips of the tines down a bit more usually which brings the loader arms even further from digging in. Having the tines angled up defeats the purpose so the arms digging in at that point is a moot issue.

 

[edritchey]

I'd check with Messick's to see if they have a Land Pride model that would work better for you. The bad thing is availability.

 

[mcmxi]

Ok, sorry I posted my opinion and used a pic from the internet of something I do not own to illustrate my observation and even said “seems” implying that I’m not sure.

Here's another photo of my tractor and grapple taken this morning. I wanted to move some boulders around so it was no big deal to take this illustrative photo. Notice that there's more than 4" of clearance between the underside of the loader and the ground when the lower tines are parallel to and touching the ground. This position allows me to push into a pile of brush, logs or whatever without driving the grapple down into the dirt to dig. This is a Wicked 60 root rake grapple and I was able to pick up and move the boulders shown below.

 

[lynnmor]

Ok, sorry I posted my opinion and used a pic from the internet of something I do not own to illustrate my observation and even said “seems” implying that I’m not sure.

OP is not gonna accomplish his goal with the EA either. It may float without the loader arms touching the ground and without the tines digging in but then it isn’t picking anything up off the ground either which was the stated goal. No root rake grapple is going to float over the ground with the tines angled to pick stuff up out of the turf without digging in. Maybe it’s a design flaw?

The 1st pic the OP posted shows the grapple being set just about right for what I’d expect a root grapple to be used for in ground engagement and clean up. The loader arms aren’t digging in. It’s fine. I tilt the tips of the tines down a bit more usually which brings the loader arms even further from digging in. Having the tines angled up defeats the purpose so the arms digging in at that point is a moot issue.

I never used the word float.

My photo shows the arms at ground level and would be digging in the dirt. It also shows that the grapple needs to be tilted much farther before the quick hitch can be dropped out.

The point is that the grapple cannot be used in the upright position unless one wants to beat up the arms or the soil.

 

[mcmxi]

I never used the word float.

My apologies ... I introduced that word into the conversation.

 

[Shekkie]

Here's another photo of my tractor and grapple taken this morning. I wanted to move some boulders around so it was no big deal to take this illustrative photo. Notice that there's more than 4" of clearance between the underside of the loader and the ground when the lower tines are parallel to and touching the ground. This position allows me to push into a pile of brush, logs or whatever without driving the grapple down into the dirt to dig. This is a Wicked 60 root rake grapple and I was able to pick up and move the boulders shown below.

View attachment 77145

View attachment 77146

Ok your arms are several inches clear when the grapple tines ends are level-ish. It is clearer in this pic. That is better (I guess) but here, kinda, is the point I was sorta going after. On the Virnig when the tines are in a similar position/angle the loader arms are 1” clear of the ground. Either way the tines tear up the ground before the loader would dig in. If you want more clearance then tilt it a bit more. What’s the downside? The Virnig can be positioned and used the same as you describe. I’m clearing a 100+ tornado downed trees and this is the same position/move I use to pile smaller branches before clamping down and transporting. You just have to manually adjust the tine angle and loader height. My loader arms are not digging in when doing this.

With either one the operator has to control the tine attack angle/height to keep from digging in if you want to rake the ground. Float ain’t working with either.

I stand by my assessment that the Virnig is fine. It, apparently, does not meet the expectations of the OP which is also fine. To call it flawed or improperly designed I do think is a tad unfair. It fits the description and functions as a root rake grapple. When used for it’s intended purpose there is no issue with the loader arms digging in before the tines.

I never used the word float.

My photo shows the arms at ground level and would be digging in the dirt. It also shows that the grapple needs to be tilted much farther before the quick hitch can be dropped out.

The point is that the grapple cannot be used in the upright position unless one wants to beat up the arms or the soil.

When you tilt and drop the loader out does the grapple still stand up? I really have zero issue hooking/unhooking it and it standing up.

And again I simply don’t think that is it’s intended use to be directly upright. The lower tines are clearly more digger than skimmer on design. The EA (or similar) with the longer tines would probably be better suited to that kinda use.

When the tine bottoms are flat the loader is clear or even with the ground. Tilt it a touch and practice until you get the finesse.

I don’t care what grapple or anything else anyone uses. Nothing is perfect…..there is always a give and take, preferences and expectations. I just don’t think it’s fair to malign any product that doesn’t meet a criteria that it wasn’t marketed as meeting.

 

[mcmxi]

On second thoughts ..... good luck to the OP finding something that works for him and his tractor.