UDT or Super UDT?

[Bulldog]

I look at it this way, oil is going to get nasty, regardless of what brand or type, it just the nature of the beast. After seeing how nasty the Amzoil was at 13,000 miles, I will never go that far on an oil change again

I have tried several different brands of oil over the years. I didn't just blindly switch to Amsoil products. I tested everything I use in different situations and had no plan of switching unless Amsoil proved to be better. It beat the other brands every time.

Oil does get nasty. That's why premium filters are worth the money . If you can't filter the oil it gets nasty. That reason alone is why I don't use Wix filters. They don't have the filter media that several other brands do. Not the worst on the market but far from the best.

Nasty at 13,000?
Was the engine flushed before the Amsoil was installed?
Did the filters get changed every 3,000 miles?

It's not the oil's fault if it gets dirty. That is what the oil filter is far. Sounds like the filter let you down, not the oil.

When my F 150 was driven full time the oil at 25,000 was just starting to turn a dark brown. It was cleaner looking than the Mobil was at 3,000.

I do agree that everybody should use what makes them feel good.

 

[Sam427]

I have tried several different brands of oil over the years. I didn't just blindly switch to Amsoil products. I tested everything I use in different situations and had no plan of switching unless Amsoil proved to be better. It beat the other brands every time.

Oil does get nasty. That's why premium filters are worth the money . If you can't filter the oil it gets nasty. That reason alone is why I don't use Wix filters. They don't have the filter media that several other brands do. Not the worst on the market but far from the best.

Nasty at 13,000?
Was the engine flushed before the Amsoil was installed?
Did the filters get changed every 3,000 miles?

It's not the oil's fault if it gets dirty. That is what the oil filter is far. Sounds like the filter let you down, not the oil.

When my F 150 was driven full time the oil at 25,000 was just starting to turn a dark brown. It was cleaner looking than the Mobil was at 3,000.

I do agree that everybody should use what makes them feel good.

It got one filter change, at 8000 miles like normal. When i use conventional it is fine at 8000 miles. Engines get nasty because they pull in dirt from the air, they are air pumps and there are dirt particles in the air, that gets forced into the engine when the engine fires. There is not an engine on the planet that is totally sealed off and does not pass dirt and combustion particles into the oil, none! Oil gets nasty and there isn't anything you can do about, unless you just don't run it. The Wix filters do a great job, always have, and always will, it's a quality product.

If you would like to discuss sealing off an engine for maximum combustion and the least leak down, I'm your man, I've done things most would never dream of with race engines. In fact, was doing some things back in the early 80's that motorcycle and car manufacturers are now using in production vehicles. Oil tests? I've tested so many oils in race applications it's ridiculous, under extreme conditions, like air cooled two strokes at 17.5 to 1 compression ratios. Cylinder head temperatures on air cooled engines over 600 degrees, with no damage to internal components. Guess what oils we ran that worked the best, I'll give you a hint, they weren't synthetics most of the time.

 

[Bulldog]

Any product used improperly is doomed to fail.
A test that done incorrectly has false results.
Opinions based on false results cannot be accurate or correct.

 

[vfr700f2]

For my employer, I've just bought 4 Kubota RTV900s, and will buy 2 more soon. They serve as passenger tram haulers on a school campus, running ~14 hrs per day, pulling 2400 - 5800 LB in sunny Florida. Maximum temp here is about 95. Minimum is around 34, and doesn't last long. Terrain is fairly level. Well, it's slightly hilly for coastal Florida, but the rest of you would call it flat as a board. We operate on paved roads with a 10-MPH speed limit, running in medium range. We might actually go 15 mph sometimes. Our trip is ~7 minutes long, with a few stops & starts. Then we wait ~3 minutes and go again.

The below photo shows an RTV1140 we demoed, but at least you can see my tram trailers.

For me, a 300-hr interval is about every 3 weeks, and I'll have 4 to 6 Kubota vehicles @ 2.6 gal each! That's a lot of Super UDT... While they are in warranty, I'm definitely sticking with the required intervals, and considering the temps and loads, I think I need to use Super UDT (or equivalent), not regular UDT.

I plan on using oil analysis regularly, and would be happy to extend my intervals or use a less-costly fluid (after the warranty period) if I can count on it not doing any harm. Extended intervals in my situation probably won't lead to condensation problems like you'd have in "normal" use.

My local Kubota dealer gets $24/gal for a 5-gal pail of Super UDT. Thanks for the info on Chevron THF (above) but it's $1876 for a 55-gal drum. That's ~$34/gal. I'm waiting to find what discount they'll offer, but I doubt it'll be enough. Especially since Kubota is ~10 minutes away and the Chevron supplier is not. They claim it's only available in drums and they only have one drum on hand, so resupply may be inconsistent.

I saw discussion of Texas Refinery Corp UTF-Red on another board. TRC says the fluid is comparable to Super UDT, and at least one guy thinks it's better. The prices mentioned in the thread are several years old now, and were just a hair lower than Super UDT at the time, though shipping was free on orders over $300. I've emailed TRC....

Shell has Spirax S4 TXM, which they describe as a very premium fluid but their info doesn't mention meeting either of the Kubota specs. I've sent an inquiry, but if anyone knows for sure it's not comparable to Super UDT, please let me know.

If anyone has advice on products, change intervals, or anything else that might be helpful in my situation, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks for all the great info in this thread!

kevin

 

[Stumpy]

Haven't read the whole thread and don't have time to right now but the conclusion I've come to on Super UDT is that any high quality (not $45 for 5 gals) synthetic UTF is equivalent. If a fluid meets John Deere's more common J20C and J20D spec it's at least the equivalent of UDT. To the best of my knowledge the only difference between UDT and Super UDT is the super is a full synthetic fluid. $24 a gallon was about right price wise for synthetic UTF if I remember correctly. Considering the high usage rate and high temperatures you'd probably be better off with synthetics as they resist break down under high heat better.

Take it with a grain of salt as always.

EDIT: Super UDT is apparently not a synthetic oil, see later post. Disregard most of that, no longer sure about anyway but the last two sentences. Apologies.

 

[gurn]

I think I remember Vic saying SUDT is not synthetic, just mainly better in the cold and can go twice as long between changes.

 

[Stumpy]

I found the post where he says that (6th result down on googling:super udt synthetic).

If you look at the viscosity characteristics compared with regular UDT it flows much better cold while having similar viscosity hot. Reading those I usually see that with synthetic or semi-synthetic oil though I suppose they could have pumped it full of VI enhancers. I would take Vic at his word though, he's got a much clearer line of information than I do.

 

[vfr700f2]

One Chevron source offered me the THF for about $23.60/gal in a drum, a few cents cheaper than Super UDT in pails. Nice deal, but it's still a big investment and takes up a lot of space.

 

[vfr700f2]

Current price on TRC fluids (red or regular) = $131.40 for a 6-gal pail. That's $21.90/gal. A $375 order gets you free shipping.

My owners manual gives the service intervals, but doesn't give a longer interval if using Super UDT vs regular. My manual doesn't seem to require Super, although it does say to refer to dealer for recommendation. Am I correct in assuming that I must follow the intervals to maintain warranty coverage?

Are filters available with equal or better quality to Kubota parts, but less expensive? Do we have the factory specs for filter performance?

I am NOT interested in a "bargain" fluid or filter, I just want the best deal on OE or better quality.

So, does this sound like a good plan:

If regular UDT is suitable for my application, and I'm changing at the recommended interval (200 hr filters, 400 hr fluid), I should be fine using regular UDT throughout the warranty period. I will use a quality major-brand fluid that "meets or exceeds" UDT spec. I do NOT want one that "is suitable for use where UDT is specified".

AFTER the warranty period, I'll switch to a premium fluid and stretch out the intervals as far as my used oil analysis permits.

Keep in mind, cold temps are not an issue for me. My units will be garaged when not in use. They are used 14 hours per day, 365 days per year. My current fuel tank does not have a meter, but measuring by eyeball, fuel use is less than 1/4 gal per hour. A 400 hour interval is once a month.

I appreciate any guidance you can give. This is my first experience with this sort of equipment, and my situation is a bit outside the "normal" use you'd expect.

Thanks!
kevin

 

[Bulldog]

From my own personal experience using Amsoil tractor trans/hyd fluid it would work well for you. It makes a big difference reducing heat and is rated for extended service intervals.

With a commercial account it would cost you 27.80/gal in 5 gallon buckets, 25.05/gal in 55 gallon drums.

 

[Stumpy]

Heh just realized the link I posted last time was the first page of this thread. Whoops.

I though about mentioning the Amsoil but didn't since their UTF is kinda pricey even for them, top quality products though. No idea about the engine filters but my experience with cars is the factory filters are usually very good. I'm not sure you have much choice anyway.

What a freaking mess, I'm no longer sure about what one thing I posted earlier so I'm going to go remove that for anyone reading this later. I though commercial engine oil was a mess of hazy information and confusion but this UTF stuff puts it to shame. I think I may have to track down an engineer in the industry and get this straightened out. For now I've got to get back to studying but I'll say that sounds like an excellent plan. Keep an eye on your iron number while using UDT and perhaps before the warranty runs out and you switch your whole fleet try a few different fluid options in your machines.

 

[vfr700f2]

Thanks, Bulldog, but I figure Genuine Kubota Super UDT is plenty good AND plenty expensive. My goal is to find something as good or better, but for less money. No offense to Amsoil fans, but IMHO no Amsoil product will ever be less money than the competition.

 

[WayneJessie]

For my employer, I've just bought 4 Kubota RTV900s, and will buy 2 more soon. They serve as passenger tram haulers on a school campus, running ~14 hrs per day, pulling 2400 - 5800 LB in sunny Florida. Maximum temp here is about 95. Minimum is around 34, and doesn't last long. Terrain is fairly level. Well, it's slightly hilly for coastal Florida, but the rest of you would call it flat as a board. We operate on paved roads with a 10-MPH speed limit, running in medium range. We might actually go 15 mph sometimes. Our trip is ~7 minutes long, with a few stops & starts. Then we wait ~3 minutes and go again.

The below photo shows an RTV1140 we demoed, but at least you can see my tram trailers.

For me, a 300-hr interval is about every 3 weeks, and I'll have 4 to 6 Kubota vehicles @ 2.6 gal each! That's a lot of Super UDT... While they are in warranty, I'm definitely sticking with the required intervals, and considering the temps and loads, I think I need to use Super UDT (or equivalent), not regular UDT.

I plan on using oil analysis regularly, and would be happy to extend my intervals or use a less-costly fluid (after the warranty period) if I can count on it not doing any harm. Extended intervals in my situation probably won't lead to condensation problems like you'd have in "normal" use.

My local Kubota dealer gets $24/gal for a 5-gal pail of Super UDT. Thanks for the info on Chevron THF (above) but it's $1876 for a 55-gal drum. That's ~$34/gal. I'm waiting to find what discount they'll offer, but I doubt it'll be enough. Especially since Kubota is ~10 minutes away and the Chevron supplier is not. They claim it's only available in drums and they only have one drum on hand, so resupply may be inconsistent.

I saw discussion of Texas Refinery Corp UTF-Red on another board. TRC says the fluid is comparable to Super UDT, and at least one guy thinks it's better. The prices mentioned in the thread are several years old now, and were just a hair lower than Super UDT at the time, though shipping was free on orders over $300. I've emailed TRC....

Shell has Spirax S4 TXM, which they describe as a very premium fluid but their info doesn't mention meeting either of the Kubota specs. I've sent an inquiry, but if anyone knows for sure it's not comparable to Super UDT, please let me know.

If anyone has advice on products, change intervals, or anything else that might be helpful in my situation, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks for all the great info in this thread!

kevin

Texas Refinery makes a killer fluid designed to run much longer intervals than the OE fluid. Schaeffer Oil makes a product called 315 that I have run in my Hydro Botas with superb intervals backed up by oil analysis. I have not used the Amsoil product but I have no doubt it can greatly extend intervals in sound equipment. The RTVs are excellent candidates for extending the intervals.

 

[JOE LOW]

OrangeRidge, I use Amsoil products in everything I own. Engines, trans, gear boxes, and anything that takes grease. I normally don't say much about it any more because Amsoil seems to ruffle feathers among the orange brothers. I've been using Amsoil for almost 20 yrs now so if you have any questions I'll be happy to try and help you out.

YUP
What he said and I use it (Amsoil) in my cruiser motorcycle too!