Trials and tribulations of a B2150 owner

[BadDog]

I started to post in the "what did you do today" thread, but too much to keep up with day by day, so just venting a bit, I'll summarize the last few weeks.

1) Almost a month ago I split the tractor to take 2-stage clutch to a local well regarded clutch/brake rebuilder. Apparently they are THE place to go for such things on heavy equipment in PHX. They initially say they can rebuild for a few hundred, then change their mind. Wait a week for new stack to arrive. Total cost now jumps past $700 with resurfacing the flywheel and setup of the 2 stage stack.

2) Pick up ground flywheel and "set up" pressure plate stack from "professional" well regarded shop. Get home and realize the idiot (to be too kind) used 5/16 nuts on the 8 mm studs and forked them up completely. There is NO doubt they had to know what they did, but didn't tell me, putting me into the weekend with no recourse but to wait till first of the work week, in the holidays no less. Nobody has studs that size, including local bolt and screw provider (Copper State). Wait another week for gold plated unobtanium premium deluxe super studs from local over priced monopoly Kubota stealer. Cost $20 for 2 freaking 8 mm studs, fortunately they were kind enough to add it to their order to avoid shipping.

3) Assemble all and put tractor back together along with new rubber hoses on the problematic (draining) lower return lines, hoping that blithering idiot who can't tell the difference in 5/16 and 8 mm threads (did he really think it should be THAT hard to run them up?) actually did setup correctly on the 2 stage stack.

4) 5 Gallons of UDT (~$150), welding 2 fatigue broken brackets, replacing several missing bolts, tightening about half the bolts on the tractor (previously behind silly cosmetic panels) including all 4 studs loose on the steering box. Took extra time removing every panel and going over every bolt and nut I could find. I already knew some of the front axle/loader frame bolts were missing, also apparently Kubota specific non-standard thread pitch for a 10 mm bolt (1.25 I believe?) and only locally available in "ungraded". Ordered again, supposed to be in last Friday, unknown/unspecified delay till next Tuesday.

5) Omitting a dozen lesser annoyances, all stemming from a combination of Kubota lock-in with non-standard hardware (or just not in US?) and utter incompetence (some of it my own, some the PO). Also found the entire "Easy Check" sub-harness missing from the gauge cluster, who knows why. And no surprise here, also not available from Kubota, so paid ~$25 for 3 lamps and 3 special lamp holders (to fit in the cluster) to enjoy the privilege of making my own sub-harness.

6) Can't help thinking I should have bough an older US made tractor like I've owned in the past. I've never had this much trouble with anything motorized (or so my selective memory tells me). I miss the open and easy to work on simple bullet proof tractors with only a few wires. But then again I feel the same about the old muscle cars and trucks I used to drive, but the truck I choose to drive all the time has more computing power than the space shuttle JUST to control the transmission, so I guess that about says it all...

Ok, done venting. Thanks for all the help you have all provided along the way.

 

[Lil Foot]

I feel your pain, it's a shame it has to be that way these days. The "local well regarded clutch/brake rebuilder. Apparently they are THE place to go for such things on heavy equipment in PHX" used to be world class, but I think everyone who knew anything has long since retired, and, like most companies, they made no effort to train the newbies before all the expertise left.
Regarding the "local over priced monopoly Kubota stealer", I have bitched about them several times already on this forum. I read about these wonderful dealers some members have & it makes me want to pull up stakes & move.
But hang in there, I love my little orange beast, & hopefully you will too, after the tribulations are over.

 

[D2Cat]

Sounds like you guys in Az. have more problems then others with dealers. I am VERY fortunate. I have 3 (I think) Coleman dealerships within 50 miles. Plus two others within 60 miles.

I actually drove to the closest one (about 30 miles) to pick an "0" ring! I called first. They had it, and I asked them to set it aside and I would be there within the hour. Yep, a 90 cent part cost me a few dollars in gas. But it was a part in the front hub and I didn't want to do the job twice hoping another "0" ring MIGHT work! Point is: dealerships make the difference. Coleman's are top notch. They have a web site, phone number, good prices and mail out parts.

My best source for metric bolts is Fastenal. They have a broad range of diameter, length, hardness of all fasteners. Prices you can't argue much about because choices are limited, as you have found out.

And the reason there is no working room for "fat fingers", like mine----is because these machines are called "compact". So that means they make them smaller and everything is in a tighter configuration.

And your dealing with your clutch, well that's the luck of the draw. I got a two stage clutch for a 60 HP tractor jigged up for $50. I don't remember what the parts cost, but it's all about where you go.

The USA is fast becoming a third world country with poor quality, less availability and less customer service. The older you are the more you see the difference. The younger don't have the basis for comparison, and don't know any different.

May we wake up and change before there's not enough room in the harbor to turn the boat around!!!

 

[CaveCreekRay]

"May we wake up and change before there's not enough room in the harbor to turn the boat around!!!"

AMEN!!!

But, you left us hanging!!! After all that effort, does the tractor run as good as new? I hope so!

I would have been on their door step, flywheel stack under my arm, the very next day to make fools of them and demand a re-build. I am done with accepting this lackluster performance for a high-dollar price.

Sorry for the rant but... The Millennial generation, as a general rule, is comprised of the most unmotivated, self obsessed, unprofessional, whiny, ungrateful, demanding, incapable, ignorant, rude, and unwilling, generation yet to come all the while thinking they are the smartest and most capable group of people ever to grace our planet. Their egos are enormous (fed by "FarceBook" and incessant texting) yet their experience and track record is remarkably thin.

In our generation, a bunch of young engineering grads with the average age of 26, built a machine and flew to the moon. What have these kids done? Most still live in their parents basements or off subsidies from their parents, well into their 30's. Not all, but a large percentage.

This country has been taking on water for decades, largely helped by those who want to take this country down. We now have a mass of "ego-driven ignorants" who will assume the reins with little real "edjumication" and no idea how to keep this country going. No surprise because they seem to place very little value on our society and its hard-fought freedoms. Our freedom is literally hanging in the balance.

God bless all those out there fighting on our behalf.

-back to my nap....ZZzzzzzZZZzzzzz

 

[Dieselbob]

I started to post in the "what didI already knew some of the front axle/loader frame bolts were missing, also apparently Kubota specific non-standard thread pitch for a 10 mm bolt (1.25 I believe?) and only locally available in "ungraded". Ordered again, supposed to be in last Friday, unknown/unspecified delay till next Tuesday.

Any hardware store worth 2 cents SHOULD have M10 hardware in all three pitches. (1.0. 1.25 and 1.5), and SHOULD have them in at least grade 10.9. If not, I would complain. I believe I was told that 1.25 is pretty much an Asian thing, not seen too much on European equipment. As an alternative, you could have tried an import car dealer or repair shop. It also wouldn't hurt to find out who else in your area sells and or uses equipment that utilize Kubota engines. They can be a useful back up source of parts and knowledge sometimes.

 

[BadDog]

It's a 40 minute drive without traffic. And when I realized the studs had become bolts (the nuts were left seized on the studs!), I called just before closing to let 'em have it. My contact there (the counter jockey) was very nice and apologetic, seemed very concerned. He got the owner (boss? manager? whatever), and he frankly seemed like and abject idiot himself. Insisting on making statements that clearly made no sense, and acting like I was trying to pull a fast one on them. Eventually I made it clear exactly what had gone wrong (even with his limited faculties), and they offered to pay for the studs when I got them (they had none and could offer not suggestions of sources other than Copper State), but that was it. I really felt like I wanted to end him right there and then. Though stupid over priced, the studs were not my problem. My problem was that when the studs became bolts, they should have TOLD me up front about the problem rather than tossing them in the box and waiting till I was into the weekend to discover it on my own, then act like they were just sure they did nothing wrong and that I didn't understand what I was saying (this was the boss/manager, contact guy seemed to "get it" without issue). But like I told him, the biggest issue is them not telling me, and then the resulting delay. Now add to that the ass-hat manager's attitude. Frankly, I thought more than once that it almost sounded like maybe HE did the setup.

And they do carry a LOT of metric stuff at Copper State, just not that one. And they could get it, but I had to buy a box quantity since it was a special order, and that made Kubota considerably cheaper. No local store I checked stocks high grade studs in 8 x 1.25 x 110mm in stock, I called, and then called referrals. The best they could do was all thread, which didn't seem like a good idea in that location, at least when problems mean splitting the blasted thing again. Likewise on the 10mm for the axle/loader "frame" plates. It's that bozo thread pitch that screws the plan. Most don't carry it at all, and even Copper State (industrial fasteners) carries it only in "ungraded". Fastenall is a whole other frustrating story. I didn't think about import cars, but having worked on said cars many times, I've never run across non-standard bolts other than on specialized fasteners (banjo bolts and such). Might have been worth a shot, but didn't consider it.

 

[Lil Foot]

For hardware, Copperstate is about 2nd or 3rd on my priority list, with this guy
http://marksbolts.com
is my go to guy. He doesn't have everything, but he comes close.(not affiliated in any way, just passing on info on a great souce)
I once walked in and asked for a 5/16-18, SS, flat head bolt, 8" long, with a Torx drive head. His response was "Just a few, or do you want a case?" Find that at your local Homer Depot.

Sounds like you guys in Az. have more problems then others with dealers.

Yup. The main problem is, like many businesses in AZ, there is only ONE dealer- several stores, but all owned by the same family. They, like many businesses in AZ, aren't really concerned with customer satisfaction, because there is always another guy who doesn't know any better, or is willing to put up with poor service, so they seldom care about happy repeat customers.
It's the same situation with car dealers, motorcycle shops, ATV shops, and others that my holiday cookie addled brain can't seem to dredge up right now.

P.S.- check out Mark's videos- mildly informative, but there are several views of the store in the background- gives you a feel for the place. I could (and have) spend hours in the place- great surplus section.

 

[Billdog350]

You guys every heard of McMaster-Carr? FAST shipping and awesome prices...plus they have just about everything you'd ever want.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-cap-screws/=vc59ak

 

[cabu]

I guess a picture says more then 1000 words:

 

[Tomcat]

Hey Russ, if it will help any I have a PILE of unobtainium behind my barn. Seriously, I feel your pain.

 

[Lil Foot]

You guys every heard of McMaster-Carr? FAST shipping and awesome prices...plus they have just about everything you'd ever want.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-cap-screws/=vc59ak

Yup, used them constantly when I was working, but with the aforementioned Mark's 3 miles away, it's easier & faster for me then McMC.

Hey Russ, if it will help any I have a PILE of unobtainium behind my barn.

Me too, but it floated away… not enough flux vortex, I guess.

 

[Tomcat]

You should have enabled the Reverse Flux Stayputium.

 

[BadDog]

Actually I knew about Mark's but it never crossed my mind, never looked there for odd metric stuff so not sure how much he has. Copper state always has (in the past) what I need in stock, and just down the road. I wish I had thought of Marks, but I'll give him a call today to see if he could have provided just for future reference.

McMasters is fine if you can find exactly what you need, and I've bought a lot of stuff. But finding specific stuff is often the biggest battle. Again, perhaps it was the holiday cookie addled brain, but never occurred to me at the time.

 

[BadDog]

Just called Mark's, very helpful fellow. But alas they do not stock either of the problem "high grade" fasteners (8x1.25x110 stud or 10x1.25x25 hex). However, he did suggest switching the hex heads to socket heads which he does stock. That would have been my answer. Also mentioned he could probably get in the actual hex head from Reno with no problem. The studs are simply SOL unless you either cut off a suitably long SHCS and thread one end, or buy the part from Kubota. Having a lathe that will cut metric threads, that would have solved my dilemma there as well from local stock. Too bad I was not thinking clearly...

Thanks for reminding me about him. I knew about him, but for some reason just completely lost it from my brain index somewhere along the way.

 

[85Hokie]

I guess a picture says more then 1000 words:

I use this all the time in the classroom, I tell my guys/girls....We the USA are the most hardheaded group around.....EVERYONE has gone to the metric but nooooooooooo......we cant do it !!!! In my drafting class they still do stuff on paper and when I have to teach them 10mm to a Cm they get all fussy, I then tell them how some King thought that 12 parts of a foot and 16 parts of an inch was a good idea??? WTF was that guy smoking......

we really ought to just DO IT ......but my mind still has to play the conversion game in my head..........someone says they ran a 10K race ....I'm still thinking.....mmmmm........about 6 miles........so I am lazy too!!!!

 

[BadDog]

As you no doubt know, it's really not that simple. Nobody cares what the original references may or may not be. And there is no argument that dealing directly with even magnitudes (multiples of 10) is far easier when using a base 10 number system. But metric threading is a fools errand. They measure in MM the width of a single thread rather than as an integral (usually) multiple over a unit of distance (TPI). That means 2 things that work against adoption (not counting shear number of machines in use). There are too many thread pitches and some of them are so close together that they are near impossible to distinguish. For instance, I found (IIRC) 12 mm x 1.25 bolts in the rear brackets of my B2150. But they got lost (apparently vibrated out?) and I wound up starting a (far more common) 12 x 1.5 into the hole. With the slop for production threads, I was able to thread it in several turns before it got stiff. Not stop hard as will happen with most mistaken threads, but more like dirt in the holes. I had flushed it out, but thought there was probably some rust or maybe mechanical interference (turned out there was), so ran it on through. Not a lot of resistance at all (unlike 5/16 on 8mm which is full stop in one turn), so it wasn't until I stripped it that I realized my mistake. And that is also a problem for stocking fasteners that you may need, just see my recent post where the local BOLT SUPPLIER doesn't even stock 2 different fasteners I needed in a single week. At least SAE got things generally standardized on 2 threads (in most cases) per fractional size. And the difference was clearly visible to the naked eye.

The second issue is that because the thread width is specified rather than lead per unit (like 16 TPI), you can't easily single point the threads. Even machines MADE for metric threading with metric lead screws require that you almost always have to leave the half nuts locked the ENTIRE time you are generating the thread. Not much an issue now with CNC everything, but impacts my personal work (with manual lathe) at least a few times a month...

I generally support the metric system across the board, but metric threaded fasteners are completely foobar.

 

[Dieselbob]

I guess a picture says more then 1000 words:

Well, when you have something that works just fine, why buckle under to what a bunch of inferior countries are doing...

 

[Lil Foot]

As you no doubt know, it's really not that simple. Nobody cares what the original references may or may not be. And there is no argument that dealing directly with even magnitudes (multiples of 10) is far easier when using a base 10 number system. But metric threading is a fools errand. They measure in MM the width of a single thread rather than as an integral (usually) multiple over a unit of distance (TPI). That means 2 things that work against adoption (not counting shear number of machines in use). There are too many thread pitches and some of them are so close together that they are near impossible to distinguish. For instance, I found (IIRC) 12 mm x 1.25 bolts in the rear brackets of my B2150. But they got lost (apparently vibrated out?) and I wound up starting a (far more common) 12 x 1.5 into the hole. With the slop for production threads, I was able to thread it in several turns before it got stiff. Not stop hard as will happen with most mistaken threads, but more like dirt in the holes. I had flushed it out, but thought there was probably some rust or maybe mechanical interference (turned out there was), so ran it on through. Not a lot of resistance at all (unlike 5/16 on 8mm which is full stop in one turn), so it wasn't until I stripped it that I realized my mistake. And that is also a problem for stocking fasteners that you may need, just see my recent post where the local BOLT SUPPLIER doesn't even stock 2 different fasteners I needed in a single week. At least SAE got things generally standardized on 2 threads (in most cases) per fractional size. And the difference was clearly visible to the naked eye.
The second issue is that because the thread width is specified rather than lead per unit (like 16 TPI), you can't easily single point the threads. Even machines MADE for metric threading with metric lead screws require that you almost always have to leave the half nuts locked the ENTIRE time you are generating the thread. Not much an issue now with CNC everything, but impacts my personal work (with manual lathe) at least a few times a month...
I generally support the metric system across the board, but metric threaded fasteners are completely foobar.

Well put, and I completely agree. The major aerospace company spent 36+years at was notorious for not spending money on machinery, so we were forced to use antiques to do very close tolerance, state of the art & beyond work. (As an example, I worked in a research lab that had machinery from 1918, 1941, 1956, 1963, & 1966.) We single-pointed threads of every conceivable US size, and never had much trouble, but it seemed we always had trouble with metric threads, unless we left the half nut locked. (a real PITA in a production setting.) When I started using fasteners, I think I assumed that metric fasteners had adopted a fine & coarse pitch like US sizes, but I was in for a rude awakening.

 

[Troutsqueezer]

Adoption of the metric system in the USA varies depending on the industry. I retired from Intel recently where I designed microprocessors. I can assure you, it's all metric there.

 

[ShaunRH]

Troutsqueezer is correct. Industry drives what is accepted and what isn't.

There are plenty of Brits still using imperial, just look at their machinists blogs and such.

Everyone talks about how easy metric is, and in some things it's very easy, but in others it's a PITA. Fractions work well when you need to divide things up, like lumber or steel sections. Imperial actually works faster in many industries than Metric.

What I find interesting is the Metric purists that hate us for not adopting it. I actually think it makes us smarter. We use both systems and get pretty good at interchanging them when we do our industrial works. Go to Europe and see how many people can tell you how many millimeters are in an inch. They've so dropped Imperial that they cannot benefit from it where it actually makes sense to use it.

Now, on the OP's original point.

You can find anything on the internet, you might have to look really hard to get it though.

Old US iron is great stuff to work on, unless it's a rust bucket and then rust might've turned your nice US Imperial bolt or nut into something more like a Whitworth size.

One of the more interesting sayings that I've heard and swear by with Old Iron is: anything that breaks can be made anew by any competent machine shop. This has proved to be true as the tractors were made by machine shops then.

I'm dreading the day my new L3200 starts needing in depth repairs. I might be in the same boat as Baddog!