tire ballast question

[ken bob]

Hello All

last month I bought a new L2501 hst and after reading the owner manual it says do not use tire ballast while the BH is installed, does anyone know the reason for this?

Thanks in advance

KB

 

[L4740]

My guess would be that there would be too much weight on the rear axle and rear tires.

 

[tiredguy]

My guess would be that there would be too much weight on the rear axle and rear tires.

Exactly what I would surmise too.
Al

 

[L4740]

As an add on to my reply above, just for the heck of it, I thought I would look at the owners manual for my BX23. Which as most of you, if not all of you know, it came standard as a TLB. (tractor-loader-backhoe) I was curious to see if the same warning about backhoe and liquid ballast was in my owners manual. I thought maybe it was just a warning for tractors in which a backhoe was an option.

The same warning is in the owners manual for the BX23. They also talk about to not damage the transmission, never run liquid ballast and external wheel weights at the same time. So it has to be just a weight issue. The backhoe on my 23 weighs in just over 600 lbs. The lift capacity of my 3 pt., 24" behind the lift points, is 680 lbs. So that must be around the limit of weight they want hanging off the back of the tractor.

FYI - they also say to never run liquid ballast or front weights on the front wheels.

 

[William1]

BX25D, has no ballast warning for tire fills. They do admonish people adding on wheel weights though. I have the backs and fronts on my little guy filled. Though I doubt the fill on the fronts makes much of a difference as the tires are so small.

Weight in the tires is only a problem when accelerating or slowing. None of the weight is born by the axle (as it partially would if it were wheel weights). At a standstill, all mass is on/in the tire and it stabilizes it. Suitcase weights or a 3pt weight does load the axle.

 

[85Hokie]

William,

Excellent POINT!!!

"Weight in the tires is only a problem when accelerating or slowing. None of the weight is born by the axle (as it partially would if it were wheel weights). At a standstill, all mass is on/in the tire and it stabilizes it. Suitcase weights or a 3pt weight does load the axle."

The weight is NEVER loaded on the tractor! JUST the tire that it is in! It is a win,win situation. WHERE as weights ON the tractor do place a load on axles.....bearings....etc.

Now if the tractor was going fast.....this added weight WOULD be a problem to slow down - but most of us rarely break a 10 mph barrier.

Now weight (inside front tires) could be a problem, because the lateral movement of the front end, it WOULD be harder to turn if you had a heavy ballast in the front end. AND I would have to agree the little area inside the BX series tires would not be a problem.

 

[L4740]

BX25D, has no ballast warning for tire fills. They do admonish people adding on wheel weights though. I have the backs and fronts on my little guy filled. Though I doubt the fill on the fronts makes much of a difference as the tires are so small.

Weight in the tires is only a problem when accelerating or slowing. None of the weight is born by the axle (as it partially would if it were wheel weights). At a standstill, all mass is on/in the tire and it stabilizes it. Suitcase weights or a 3pt weight does load the axle.

That would make sense then why they warn about damage to the transmission if running both fluid and external wheel weights. Since the transmisson on a HST does both accelerating and decreasing speed.

 

[Sammy3700]

This got my curiosity up too. I read the owners manual for the L3700SU. 3 months ago I also added a BH77 and it also stated now water in tires. Luckily mine were never loaded!!!
I agree with everyone else about water does not effect weight on the axle. The only additional thought I have is with loaded tires and the backhoe would this increase traction to the point the tires would not be able to slip like when loading dirt or gravel and cause to much pressure on the HST SYSTEM?

 

[Billdog350]

I think Sammy has it nailed, since the weight is not actually being supported by the axles, the concern by the mfg is on too much traction and possible damage as a result.

If you're prudent with your HST usage (or GST or DT), I don't see how ballast + BH is an issue for reliability. My dad has been using his L48 TLB for years with ballasted rear tires and the BH is on the machine 90% of the time and he's had 0 issues with his HST or otherwise. He has about 3000 hrs on the machine now.

 

[William1]

That would make sense then why they warn about damage to the transmission if running both fluid and external wheel weights. Since the transmisson on a HST does both accelerating and decreasing speed.

E=MC2

If there is too much mass you are trying to accelerate, you can over load the trans. Consider (simplistically) you have two ways weight affects things. Pushing down from gravity. Ballast in the tires only affects the tires, Wheel weights most affect the tires but because the are past the rim offset, do add some angular twist to the axle (same reason spacers are often frowned on).
Chassis weights all must be born by the axles.

All the mass must be moved by the transmission. Too much mass will over load the trans. Imagine picking up a stick and walking with it. Not a big deal. Now pick up 8' long 24" across log and run with it. The key to moving a large mass is to start slowly, move steadily and stop gently. The manufacturer of the tractor has to design and spec it for the operator who hops on, cold engine, just above idle, puts the trans in high range and stomps on the speed pedal with 500 pounds of weight in the bucket on a hill on asphalt.
The smart operator knows to have a fully warmed up engine and trans. At operating rpm (3K or so, depending on model), low range on the selector, light press on the speed pedal and slowly increase. When it comes time to sop, allow more than enough room, gently let off the speed pedal. Lightly apply the brake. Then creep to the drop off spot.

The point of adding mass is two fold. Primarily, it is to offset weight. For example, suitcases on the front (no FEL) to compensate for a 3pt attachment, creating balance front to back.
Filling the tires is down to add mass as low as possible to increase stability. Filled tires have the added bonus of being 'less bouncy' and provide a more stable ride when driving at breath taking speeds like 10mph.
All added mass provides more grip (at least until you bottom out)

 

[skeets]

OHHHHHHHHHHH so thats why the clutch use to explode on a 6 grand hole shot, when the wrinkle walls really hooked up

I never did that, I just heard the big kids talking about it,,tehheee

 

[MagKarl]

I'm going to call BS on all the acceleration and mass theories. Tractors are meant to work, they lift, push, and pull all kinds of loads. They're designed to do so. Ballast weight is only a couple hundred pounds per tire.

I'm going to guess it's a matter of backhoe strength more than anything. Loaded tires turn into several hundred extra pounds for the outriggers to lift. The BH and mounts may not be designed for that extra load.

 

[MadMax31]

Loaded tires on a TLB? When the out-riggers come down, theyre trying to bench-press the extra weight of loaded tires. Hence "axle born" weight. You already have 600 lbs of metal hanging off the back... dont load the tires...

 

[ken bob]

ello All

My apologies for responding so late I've been away, holidays,family,etc.
Thanks for all the replies . So I called my tractor dealer a couple days ago
and asked him the same question and he said I'm not sure butt I had your
tires filled with water,,,R4's,,.I went to check and yes they are I asked about rust he said they hardly ever
see much even when installing new tires. When I get time I'll let some out
add antifreeze, Got 9 hrs on the machine probably 6 on the BH ,the outriggers
lift it all with ease so that's not a problem , I suspect one could bend an outrigger arm if the loader bucket wasn't down good and hoe was dragging
the tractor ?..

Thanks,,,,,,KB

 

[William1]

My BX25D has zero issues lifting with loaded tires. Even when he RPMs are low, the speed at which the pistons extend does not change from initial extension when touching nothing to lifting the tractor.
If the weight of loaded tires were a problem, think about how much the loading gets to when peeling up a chunk of concrete or a root out of the ground. FEL loaded with dirt for stability and still lifted off the ground from time to time. Skinny operators or ones with greater personalities?
Add-on wheel weight could cause wheel bearing loading issues (could) if the loading causes angular torsion (probably not the correct term). Those of you who swap wheels understand the risks in some vehicles about rim offset and how it can affect wheel bearings. Weights added can have a similar effect. Though most tractors are robust enough for this to be a non-issue, I have no doubt it may be for some. I would suspect if the wheel weight was positioned to be in the center line of the tire, they would not be a problem.

 

[murky]

E=MC2
...

This post started out silly and didn't get any better.

That equation is for mass/energy equivalence where "C" is the speed of light.

Adding fluid ballast will increase the rotational inertia of the tire somewhat, although at tractor speeds it should be negligible.

 

[William1]

This post started out silly and didn't get any better.

That equation is for mass/energy equivalence where "C" is the speed of light.

Adding fluid ballast will increase the rotational inertia of the tire somewhat, although at tractor speeds it should be negligible.

Inertia is the resistance of any physical object to any change in its state of motion (this includes changes to its speed, direction or state of rest). It is the tendency of objects to keep moving in a straight line at constant velocity.
E=MC2 applies to anything moving or having energy. To make it silly, I'd say 100 tons moving at 1 mph and a imoveable wall with me in between is not something I could stop by sticking my hand out.

 

[Grouse Feathers]

Since most tractors do not move at the speed of light, the equation for kinetic energy is E=1/2mv^2.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

In my best valley girl voice...OMG... like... gezzz!!!!

Loading the rear tires has almost Zero effect on any operation such as stopping and starting, yes, besides helping traction and keeping the back end on the ground.

 

[armylifer]

After reading this thread I decided to try loading my tires with water. I am glad that I did. I have an old Army trailer that I have been using to haul 2 yards of gravel at a time. I have been using my BX 1860 to unload the gravel by driving it into the trailer and scooping out a load. I do this by parking the trailer in the drainage ditch in front of my house and then driving the tractor into the trailer and scoop the gravel out with the FEL. Before I loaded the tires with water, the tires would spin as I drove it into the trailer and scooped a load of gravel. Now with the tires loaded I have all the traction I need to prevent tire spin on the metal bottom of my trailer. I have also noticed that the tractor rides a lot smoother over bumpy ground.

Now that I know how the tractor acts with the tires loaded with water, I am going to drain about 1/2 of the water out and replace it with antifreeze. If it were not for the discussion in this thread I probably would not have tried loading the tires. Thanks to all for the informative thread.