Time for a cam and lifters?

Schmotown

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I'm cleaning parts in preparation to reinstalling them on my B7100 / D750. Attached are (2) pics of lifters. Five of the six lifters look fine but one doesn't look good. My recollection is that you can't replace one lifter, you replace all of them and also replace the cam. Do you have any advice? I can't feel any distortion with a fingernail and a strait edge doesn't reveal any distortion but in the right light those marks are slightly concave.

This "project" is becoming a money pit if I have to buy a new cam and lifters. Thanks for any suggestions.

Larry
 

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torch

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Measure the cam. Do you know which hole the suspect lifter came out of? If the cam is ok I'd probably just replace the one lifter, provided I knew which ones where worn into which hole.
 
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TheOldHokie

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I'm cleaning parts in preparation to reinstalling them on my B7100 / D750. Attached are (2) pics of lifters. Five of the six lifters look fine but one doesn't look good. My recollection is that you can't replace one lifter, you replace all of them and also replace the cam. Do you have any advice? I can't feel any distortion with a fingernail and a strait edge doesn't reveal any distortion but in the right light those marks are slightly concave.

This "project" is becoming a money pit if I have to buy a new cam and lifters. Thanks for any suggestions.

Larry
Valves are adjustable. Why cant you
replace just one lifter? That gets done all the time. Personally I would have all of them refaced.

Dan
 

Schmotown

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Measure the cam. Do you know which hole the suspect lifter came out of? If the cam is ok I'd probably just replace the one lifter, provided I knew which ones where worn into which hole.
Torch,
Yes, I know which hole the lifter came from. That lobe doesn't have any scratches on it. Would I compare the measurement to other lobes to see if they are wearing evenly or see if it is in spec per the manual or maybe both?

Thanks,
Larry
 

Schmotown

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Valves are adjustable. Why cant you
replace just one lifter? That gets done all the time. Personally I would have all of them refaced.

Dan
Dan,
Refacing is probably a very good option, especially if the cam is okay. It may be the best solution. I don't know why I couldn't replace just one but it seems like the conventional wisdom on the web is to repalce all of the lifters. I think refacing might be the most economical route. Time to go out and measure the cam.
Thanks,
Larry
 

torch

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Torch,
Yes, I know which hole the lifter came from. That lobe doesn't have any scratches on it. Would I compare the measurement to other lobes to see if they are wearing evenly or see if it is in spec per the manual or maybe both?

Thanks,
Larry
That's what I'd do: Is it in spec and is it close to the others?

And like Dan suggests: it may even be possible to save that lifter by polishing it out, depending on depth of damage. If you have access to a surface plate there's a couple of ways you couid measure that. Plastigauge or a DTI mounted on a height gauge perhaps. Most people can detect a difference of about 0.001" with a finger, so if you can't feel it then it may not be as bad as it looks in the photo.
 

North Idaho Wolfman

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Check the bore that the lifter goes in.
It looks like it didn't spin like it should for a while.
If it's damaged it might need honed.

Measure the lobes of the cam, if it matches the other 2 I'd run it.
 
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TheOldHokie

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Dan,
Refacing is probably a very good option, especially if the cam is okay. It may be the best solution. I don't know why I couldn't replace just one but it seems like the conventional wisdom on the web is to repalce all of the lifters. I think refacing might be the most economical route. Time to go out and measure the cam.
Thanks,
Larry
The face on solid tappet lifters is crowned so refacing is a job best left to an automotive machine shop.

Dan

1000003695.jpg
 
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Runs With Scissors

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I feel your pain………I have had my fair share of “money pit” projects.

The problem/dilemma/rub is always how to value my time and frustration as compared to the “cost over-run”.

The question is always “How pissed off am I going to be, if/when I start this thing up, and find out that I should have replaced the cam/lifter(s)?”

How much is a cam and lifters?
 

North Idaho Wolfman

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I feel your pain………I have had my fair share of “money pit” projects.

The problem/dilemma/rub is always how to value my time and frustration as compared to the “cost over-run”.

The question is always “How pissed off am I going to be, if/when I start this thing up, and find out that I should have replaced the cam/lifter(s)?”

How much is a cam and lifters?
One source: $1492.80


1763661819676.png


1763661858280.png
 

TheOldHokie

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Wow…..thats a lot of “dough".

Hmmmmmm??????…........emory cloth and a granite counter top, is sounding pretty good at this point….
Flat tapperts are not actually flat. Look at the diagram I posted. Refacing is done with a specialized grinder. If its only one tappet buy a new one.

You could have the cam reground and all tappets refaced for a fraction of what Kubota is asking.

Dan
 
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Schmotown

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That's what I'd do: Is it in spec and is it close to the others?

And like Dan suggests: it may even be possible to save that lifter by polishing it out, depending on depth of damage. If you have access to a surface plate there's a couple of ways you couid measure that. Plastigauge or a DTI mounted on a height gauge perhaps. Most people can detect a difference of about 0.001" with a finger, so if you can't feel it then it may not be as bad as it looks in the photo.
Misters Torch, North Idaho Wolfman, Old Hokie, Runs With Scissors and hagrid I'm sorry for not getting back with you but I didn't get notification or your responses in my email account. Don't know what's up with that!

I've read all of your responses as well as reading on-line regarding cams and lifters and I have contacted (4) machine shops that specialize in regrinding cams and refacing the lifters. I only heard back from one shop and I'm waiting to hear back from them with a price for polishing the cam and replacing the lifters. They do reface lifters but they thought it would be cheaper to just buy new lifters but they weren't aware of Kubotas price for lifters. Here's what I have noticed about the cam and lifters:

The base of #3 lifter is scored and I polished the face with 400, 800 and 1,200 grit but the scoring is still there.

The lifter bores were already cleaned with some fine grit paper but I don't remember what grit.

The block is still on my bench and I lubed and reinstalled the cam in the block. I then lubed the #3 and #5 (random choice) lifters and started them in their bores. Both lifters slowly settled under their own weight and seated on the cam.

I put two identical 3/8" sockets into the cups of the lifters to keep a bit of weight on them and slowly spun the cam with a drill motor. Both lifters have a dot of yellow paint at the top of the cup and they both rotated 360 deg. and at about the same rate.

All of the cam lobes are well within spec and the lift of all six lobes is similar so I don't think there is any damage to the cam. The cam lobes all look fine with no scratches.

The scoring on the #3 lifter can barely be felt with a fingernail after my attempt at polishing but I'm pretty sure I could remove the scoring with a coarser grit paper.

My first thought is to continue sanding the lifter until the scoring is mostly gone (Torch, I liked your idea about checking the depth of the scratches with Plastigauge). Then polish the cam and reassemble the engine and forget about it!

I've verified that #3 lifter can rotate and maybe twice yearly oil changes will alert me if something is wrong with the engine internals.

Thanks in advance,

Larry
 
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North Idaho Wolfman

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Throw it together and run it.
The spring pressure is very very light so you'll probably never notice an issue with any of it in your lifetime.
 

TheOldHokie

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Misters Torch, North Idaho Wolfman, Old Hokie, Runs With Scissors and hagrid I'm sorry for not getting back with you but I didn't get notification or your responses in my email account. Don't know what's up with that!

I've read all of your responses as well as reading on-line regarding cams and lifters and I have contacted (4) machine shops that specialize in regrinding cams and refacing the lifters. I only heard back from one shop and I'm waiting to hear back from them with a price for polishing the cam and replacing the lifters. They do reface lifters but they thought it would be cheaper to just buy new lifters but they weren't aware of Kubotas price for lifters. Here's what I have noticed about the cam and lifters:

The base of #3 lifter is scored and I polished the face with 400, 800 and 1,200 grit but the scoring is still there.

The lifter bores were already cleaned with some fine grit paper but I don't remember what grit.

The block is still on my bench and I lubed and reinstalled the cam in the block. I then lubed the #3 and #5 (random choice) lifters and started them in their bores. Both lifters slowly settled under their own weight and seated on the cam.

I put two identical 3/8" sockets into the cups of the lifters to keep a bit of weight on them and slowly spun the cam with a drill motor. Both lifters have a dot of yellow paint at the top of the cup and they both rotated 360 deg. and at about the same rate.

All of the cam lobes are well within spec and the lift of all six lobes is similar so I don't think there is any damage to the cam. The cam lobes all look fine with no scratches.

The scoring on the #3 lifter can barely be felt with a fingernail after my attempt at polishing but I'm pretty sure I could remove the scoring with a coarser grit paper.

My first thought is to continue sanding the lifter until the scoring is mostly gone (Torch, I liked your idea about checking the depth of the scratches with Plastigauge). Then polish the cam and reassemble the engine and forget about it!

I've verified that #3 lifter can rotate and maybe twice yearly oil changes will alert me if something is wrong with the engine internals.

Thanks in advance,

Larry
I would not screw with the lifters and abrasives. See the diagram I posted - they have a crown that causes the lifter to rotate from the wiping action of the cam. If its not right they will not rotate and you will be back here again.

Pay the shop to reface them. In fact I would probably pay for a camshaft regrind as well and sleep better at night.

TOH
 

Schmotown

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I would not screw with the lifters and abrasives. See the diagram I posted - they have a crown that causes the lifter to rotate from the wiping action of the cam. If its not right they will not rotate and you will be back here again.

Pay the shop to reface them. In fact I would probably pay for a camshaft regrind as well and sleep better at night.

TOH
Dan, thanks for your reply. I did see your info on the crown and the taper on the cam so I'll leave them alone. I would normally go the route of having a shop make everything right but I've got too much invested in this "project" and as it will have about 5 hours a year run-time I'm going to take my chances and just polish the cam, put it back together and hope!

Thanks again for your input,

Larry
 

TheOldHokie

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Dan, thanks for your reply. I did see your info on the crown and the taper on the cam so I'll leave them alone. I would normally go the route of having a shop make everything right but I've got too much invested in this "project" and as it will have about 5 hours a year run-time I'm going to take my chances and just polish the cam, put it back together and hope!

Thanks again for your input,

Larry
Then why even bother with the cam?