Third function kit install question

[CAC227]

I installed a Summit Hydraulics third function kit on my MX5200 and in the directions from Summit they have you routing the hose from the PB port on the loader valve to the “T” port on the third function valve and routing the “P” port of the third function valve to the PB port on the valve block below the operator station that feeds the 3ph and remotes. LandPride’s kit shows the same in their directions. Didn’t seem right to me so I routed PB from loader valve to “P” on third function valve and “T” on third function valve to PB on valve block below platform to feed 3ph. Question is; which way is correct? Should I leave alone or plumb they way the directions say? Thanks in advance for any reply’s.

 

[Motion]

Sounds like somebody will be buying their wife a grapple! LOL As always do as you feel is best. I'd follow the directions and if in doubt call Summit (they're good people) and they'll walk you through it. I deviated from their instructions and picked power up from a switched source in lieu of constant power.

 

[CAC227]

Maybe a grapple in the future some day, but more for a post hole digger. The 3 point diggers around here don’t work very good. We rebuild a lot of fence here on the ranch, just wanting to make life a little easier. I didn’t tap the power from a switched power source but did wire a switch in to kill power to the third function when not using so don’t try to unintentionally operate the valve with nothing attached. I will try calling Summit and see what they say. Not sure why they would be having you plumb backwards through their valve though unless it really doesn’t matter.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I installed a Summit Hydraulics third function kit on my MX5200 and in the directions from Summit they have you routing the hose from the PB port on the loader valve to the “T” port on the third function valve and routing the “P” port of the third function valve to the PB port on the valve block below the operator station that feeds the 3ph and remotes. LandPride’s kit shows the same in their directions. Didn’t seem right to me so I routed PB from loader valve to “P” on third function valve and “T” on third function valve to PB on valve block below platform to feed 3ph. Question is; which way is correct? Should I leave alone or plumb they way the directions say? Thanks in advance for any reply’s.

I have no knowledge of that valve but open center plumbing is pretty standard. Normally three circuits on a open center directional control valve with power beyond functionality:

• P port on valve is pump pressure IN to valve
• PB port (sometimes marked N or C) on valve is high pressure carryover OUT (AKA power beyond) - used to provide pump pressure to a downstream valve or device.
• T port on valve is exhaust oil OUT from work ports and should go directly to tank/reservoir. T port should not go to another valve or be used to provide pump pressure to down stream devices

Dan

 

[CAC227]

Thanks everyone so far for your help/replies. To make things more understandable I found a picture of the way I have it plumbed in as well as the valve. The directions that came with the valve kit showed basically swapping the hoses on the p and t ports, which I didn’t think was right so I installed as the diagram below shows.

 

[Motion]

Post a picture of the directions that came with your kit, so we can see the difference.

 

[MSG H]

Installing the Summit 3rd function kit on my L3901 now, instructions say exactly as OP describes

 

[CAC227]

T

Installing the Summit 3rd function kit on my L3901 now, instructions say exactly as OP describes

Thanks for posting, beat me to it. The directions have you routing flow backwards through the valve. As the power beyond from the loader valve should feed the p port in my opinion. Not sure of the reasoning to feed through the t port. I plumbed mine the opposite of way the directions said. Just wondering if I’m missing something and should have followed the directions.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thanks everyone so far for your help/replies. To make things more understandable I found a picture of the way I have it plumbed in as well as the valve. The directions that came with the valve kit showed basically swapping the hoses on the p and t ports, which I didn’t think was right so I installed as the diagram below

The valve in your diagram appears to be a single spool solenoid actuated open center directional control valve with no power beyond functionality. It will "work" for the most part as plumbed but is not the proper valve or plumbing for the circuit. The proper way would use a third function valve with power beyond port as shown below. Summit sells that kit less hoses and brackets as a "universal" third function kit for $459.

Dan

 

[MSG H]

So, myself installing a Summit 3rd function, I called Summit and spoke with them. The power beyond is fluid exiting the valve, no matter the valve, FEL valve or 3rd function valve, it moves on to 3PT or rear remotes or BH then back to tank.

Plumbing the FEL power beyond to the 3rd function P port (power beyond) will make it work in reverse, it should work Summit says. Summit says it was designed and tested to work as: FEL PB > 3rd function T port > through valve and out 3rd function P port back to manifold.

Summit, Land Pride and WR Long all use the same hydraulic schematic as OP mentioned.

Edit: This is plumbing the 3rd function valve WITHOUT a BH or rear remotes

 

[TheOldHokie]

So, myself installing a Summit 3rd function, I called Summit and spoke with them. The power beyond is fluid exiting the valve, no matter the valve, FEL valve or 3rd function valve, it moves on to 3PT or rear remotes or BH then back to tank.

Plumbing the FEL power beyond to the 3rd function P port (power beyond) will make it work in reverse, it should work Summit says. Summit says it was designed and tested to work as: FEL PB > 3rd function T port > through valve and out 3rd function P port back to manifold.

Summit, Land Pride and WR Long all use the same hydraulic schematic as OP mentioned.

Edit: This is plumbing the 3rd function valve WITHOUT a BH or rear remotes

I would like someone to give me a lucid explanation of that plumbing. Unless that is a very strange valve P on that third function valve is not power beyond - it is pressure in. Just for starters I would like to know what route does cylinder exhaust oil from that third function valve take? Clearly it has to go out whichever port is connected to the down stream valve(s). I don't care what they are labeled if ANY of those valves is out of neutral the third function cylinder will be hydraulically locked and unable to move. That is why a valve with power beyond is used to supply down stream valves and has three port connections with specific industry standard functions:

1. Pressure in from pump / upstream valves (P port)
2. Low pressure tank return (T port) used strictly for cylinder exhaust oil and pressure relief.
3. A third high pressure carryover port -(PB/N/C) used for supplying (not receiving) pump pressure to down stream valves.

The open center rule for daisy chaining DCVs is simple - all upstream valves should be power beyond plumbed as shown below. Summit knows that and says it quite clearly in their FAQ

Will this valve work for my application?
You’ll need to answer the following questions:


Do you have other valves downstream from this valve (Examples include: Other Control Valves, Rear Remote Valve, Backhoe Valve, 3-Point Valve)? If so, you’ll need the power beyond adapter sleeve to provide pressure and flow to those valves.

Yet they are selling a kit that violates that rule and offering an explanation that doesn't seem to make any sense.

Dan

 

[CAC227]

This is Land Pride’s instructions on how to install their third function kit, which is identical to the Summit kit. Goes against everything taught about hydraulic valve labeling/plumbing but maybe the valve is a tandem center valve in which case doesn’t really matter which port is in/out?

I guess I just question and think about things too much. Maybe should just follow the directions and be happy that I now have a great useful addition on my tractor. Thanks everyone for your input and help.

 

[CAC227]

I would like someone to give me a lucid explanation of that plumbing. Unless that is a very strange valve P on that third function valve is not power beyond - it is pressure in. Just for starters I would like to know what route does cylinder exhaust oil from that third function valve take? Clearly it has to go out whichever port is connected to the down stream valve(s). I don't care what they are labeled if ANY of those valves is out of neutral the third function cylinder will be hydraulically locked and unable to move. That is why a valve with power beyond is used to supply down stream valves and has three port connections with specific industry standard functions:

1. Pressure in from pump / upstream valves (P port)
2. Low pressure tank return (T port) used strictly for cylinder exhaust oil and pressure relief.
3. A third high pressure carryover port -(PB/N/C) used for supplying (not receiving) pump pressure to down stream valves.

The open center rule for daisy chaining DCVs is simple - all upstream valves should be power beyond plumbed as shown below. Summit knows that and says it quite clearly in their FAQ



Yet they are selling a kit that violates that rule and offering an explanation that doesn't seem to make any sense.

Dan

They’re probably banking on you not using the 3 point hitch or rear remotes at the same time as the 3rd function.

 

[TheOldHokie]

They’re probably banking on you not using the 3 point hitch or rear remotes at the same time as the 3rd function.

There is more to it than that - there is some operational reason all these sellers are hooking that valve up backwards. What are they accomplishing that you can't do with normal circuitry? And why do they say you cannot use that plumbing with a backhoe or rear remotes? Someone knows the details and they are not sharing them.

So on the surface all they have accomplished is eliminating a tank return line loop from the third function valve. Not much of a gain and at what cost?

I just purchased and am awaiting delivery of a L3901. I am considering adding a third function to the loader valve which is what brought me into this discussion. I like this operator setup - pushbutton controls for a third single spool solenoid DCV added to the joy stick - gets you simultaneous one hand control of all three functions and better usability than a six port diverter valve. But I dislike mysteries and I am not going to install hydraulic equipment I do not understand. Unless i can get someone to provide a satisfactory explanation of the operation of that circuit that plumbing and valve is off my list. A conventional 3 port PB valve (Summit Z50 with power beyond sleeve or equivalent) in place of that mystery two port valve and standard power beyond circuitry seemingly works equally well if not better and avoids unintended and unnecessary interactions with downstream valves.

Dan

 

[Crash277]

They’re probably banking on you not using the 3 point hitch or rear remotes at the same time as the 3rd function.

how would you use them both at the same time? The 3rd function is 2 buttons utilized by your right hand, factory rear remote levers are located by your right hand, and your 3tp controls as well. unless you move your 3pt lever with your right hand, then take your left hand off the steering wheel to actuate the 3rd function, you are only using them all 1 at a time.

 

[DustyRusty]

IMPORTANT: Land Pride recommends that your dealer connect hydraulic hoses (#16 & #22) to your tractor’s power beyond port and loader valve port. Improper hook-up could cause damage to your tractor. IMPORTANT: DO NOT connect hydraulic hoses (#16 & #22) to the loader valve and power beyond port if the outer block feeds equipment mounted on the back of the tractor such as a backhoe. The instructions below do not apply in this situation. Have your nearest dealer hook-up these hoses. Improper hook-up can damage your tractor.

This statement in the instruction manual baffles me. Why can't they give clear and concisely worded descriptions and pictures for the hoses. It wouldn't take much more than tagging each hose with a number, and then coordinate the hose number in description of where the 2 ends go. I can't really see someone installing the whole unit, and then trailering the tractor to the dealer to do the final connections of a couple hoses.

 

[ayak]

All very good points being made, and am watching this thread closely.
That said, I purchased the kit below for use with my L3301 (with backhoe) and Grapple, and everything works perfectly (and has for well over a year now.). I followed the Backhoe instructions and when I came up with a hose clearance issue, the folks at Summit (Tony and Patrick) were very responsive and sent me what I needed to complete the install.

 

[TheOldHokie]

how would you use them both at the same time? The 3rd function is 2 buttons utilized by your right hand, factory rear remote levers are located by your right hand, and your 3tp controls as well. unless you move your 3pt lever with your right hand, then take your left hand off the steering wheel to actuate the 3rd function, you are only using them all 1 at a time.

When people start adding hydraulic third party circuits and controls there are lots of other possibilities. The burning question for me is why plumb it this way to begin with? What is this non-standard plumbing buying you that makes it worth exposing your valve to the potential for undesirable down stream interactions. If you follow standard PB circuit rules you avoid that potential. That is exactly why the OEM loader valve and remotes are plumbed with power beyond.

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

All very good points being made, and am watching this thread closely.
That said, I purchased the kit below for use with my L3301 (with backhoe) and Grapple, and everything works perfectly (and has for well over a year now.). I followed the Backhoe instructions and when I came up with a hose clearance issue, the folks at Summit (Tony and Patrick) were very responsive and sent me what I needed to complete the install.

Hopefully someone at Summit will provide a more complete explanation.

Dan

 

[MSG H]

I would like someone to give me a lucid explanation of that plumbing. Unless that is a very strange valve P on that third function valve is not power beyond - it is pressure in. Just for starters I would like to know what route does cylinder exhaust oil from that third function valve take? Clearly it has to go out whichever port is connected to the down stream valve(s). I don't care what they are labeled if ANY of those valves is out of neutral the third function cylinder will be hydraulically locked and unable to move. That is why a valve with power beyond is used to supply down stream valves and has three port connections with specific industry standard functions:

1. Pressure in from pump / upstream valves (P port)
2. Low pressure tank return (T port) used strictly for cylinder exhaust oil and pressure relief.
3. A third high pressure carryover port -(PB/N/C) used for supplying (not receiving) pump pressure to down stream valves.

The open center rule for daisy chaining DCVs is simple - all upstream valves should be power beyond plumbed as shown below. Summit knows that and says it quite clearly in their FAQ



Yet they are selling a kit that violates that rule and offering an explanation that doesn't seem to make any sense.

Dan

From Summit FAQ

Third Function Valve Kits

Third Function Kit Breakdown Tractor Specific Kits Universal Monoblock Kits Universal D03 Kits GPM? 15 GPM 13 GPM, 21 GPM 15 GPM, 25 GPM Hoses? Yes No No

summit-hydraulics.com