Third B7100 clutch in 4 years!?!?

[DustyRusty]

If it moves now, you won't have to worry about a clutch, you will need a new engine block.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Good job!

 

[Vigo]

Woah, took a couple days off and this got way more interesting.. picture is worth a thousand words as they say. That last pics showing the clutch destruction is NOT the normal type of failure i had been thinking about.. and of course the fact that no damper springs were actually broken, just damaged after they were set loose.. The design of your loader subframe was totally off my radar and the factory subframe that mine has (which i just assumed yours had) makes it basically impossible for that type of failure to occur, but it makes perfect sense in retrospect why it was doing what it did. I enjoy ‘internet diagnoses’ but this is a perfect example of things that would be obvious to me in person being missed while working ‘remote’

Glad you found it and fixed it!!

 

[torch]

but it makes perfect sense in retrospect why it was doing what it did. I enjoy ‘internet diagnoses’ but this is a perfect example of things that would be obvious to me in person being missed while working ‘remote’

Yeah, "in retrospect" it seems pretty obvious. Only took me 3 clutches to figure it out.

In my defense, the warpage was not so obvious when bolted to flat surfaces. It's not like there was a gap or anything to highlight the warpage. The effect was pretty subtle when all bolted together. The engine was flat to the inner bolt circle and the bell housing was flat to the outer bolt circle. If I mounted the magnetic base of the DTI and rotated the engine, the crank ran perfectly true. It was when I moved the base slightly and had completely different measurements (that still ran perfectly true, just different) that I started looking harder at that plate.

I do want to thank everyone for their input. While nobody predicted exactly this, working through your suggestions about possible ways things could be misaligned all helped the eventual diagnosis and -- hopefully! -- cure.

BTW: I got notice last night that my clutch set from Jeff Cube is sitting at the post office awaiting payment of duties and taxes ($30). If I had waited for the local (Kubota North) dealer to re-open after New Years, the absolute earliest he would have had it and I could pick it up would have been yesterday morning. I would call that a tie.

(I'm a week ahead because Kooy Brothers was open for 2-1/2 days last week and I was able to make it down to the city by 2pm last Friday).

 

[torch]

I did a quick comparison of the eBay friction plate vs OEM. The e-bay clutch has less material where mine failed -- same thickness at about 0.060", but 0.300" smaller diameter so less material between the spring and the OD. The springs themselves are the same diameter wire, but 1 less turn (4 vs 5). The splined hub has a smaller OD, but is slightly longer. The friction material itself is thicker on the e-bay clutch. Overall the quality of construction seems similar.

I did not yet dig out the old pressure plate and compare them. I don't see any obvious issues with it though.

 

[Vigo]

The great value of this as a learning experience for the rest of us is that people splitting these tractors for clutches or whatever else can now be aware of the POSSIBILITY of a bent 'motor plate' which could cause issues down the line. I know i said my loader subframe should make this failure nigh-impossible, but when i finally take it apart for a clutch im gonna check the plate out anyway!! Never would have thought to do that if not for this little contribution to the 'knowledge base'.

 

[torch]

I suspect that bending that plate is unlikely if you have the older style subframe that mounts to the side of the engine. I also suspect that I may have applied more force than the newer style system was designed to accommodate. I used 2" diameter cylinders when I built my FEL, planning to reduce the relief valve setting to limit lift to about 500lbs -- the rated capacity of the OEM FEL.

Great plan, but after things were built I discovered that lowering the FEL relief valve setting also lowered the maximum pressure available to the 3PH. Doh! I had to put it back to restore the lift capacity of the hitch. The bucket size should limit the load of typical damp soil to about 500 lbs or so. But then I built a set of forks...

I'm thinking I may just add an in-line relief valve to the lift cylinder line itself, to forestall the possibility of overloading, including shock loads, in the future.

 

[Vigo]

Putting the relief after the loader valve would fix that particular issue at the expense of a few more pieces and connections, but seems like the easiest thing to do here. The only weakness it presents is the loader dropping (even if little by little) when hitting bumps while loaded. Probably a rare occurrence, but.. something to consider.

I had to dig up your loader build thread since im newish here and never saw it, and i see you already updated that. I wasn't aware there was ever ANY factory loader subframe that didn't attach to the engine. I am only aware of the B219 and B1630 loaders for these tractors and all pics i can find of both, show the subframe attaching to the side of the engine. It would make sense to make those pieces removable for tractor splitting, but i would be surprised if there was a factory loader that simply didn't have them at all. Of course, that would arguably be acceptable if the engine actually bolted directly to the bellhousing rather than through a plate, so if i didn't already know what i learned from this thread, i wouldn't have given it much thought if id ever seen it before!

 

[TheOldHokie]

Putting the relief after the loader valve would fix that particular issue at the expense of a few more pieces and connections, but seems like the easiest thing to do here. The only weakness it presents is the loader dropping (even if little by little) when hitting bumps while loaded. Probably a rare occurrence, but.. something to consider.

I had to dig up your loader build thread since im newish here and never saw it, and i see you already updated that. I wasn't aware there was ever ANY factory loader subframe that didn't attach to the engine. I am only aware of the B219 and B1630 loaders for these tractors and all pics i can find of both, show the subframe attaching to the side of the engine. It would make sense to make those pieces removable for tractor splitting, but i would be surprised if there was a factory loader that simply didn't have them at all. Of course, that would arguably be acceptable if the engine actually bolted directly to the bellhousing rather than through a plate, so if i didn't already know what i learned from this thread, i wouldn't have given it much thought if id ever seen it before!

The position of the inlet relief has nothing to do with shock loads on the cylinders and moving it to as fter the loader valve leaves the valve unprotected.

Dan

 

[Vigo]

Yes, BUT if you put an inline relief between the loader valve and the base end of the lift cylinders, not only will it limit your lift force to that relief setting, it will also crack open any time the 'external forces' on your lift cylinders cause pressure to spike beyond the relief setting. Messicks did a video a while back with a grapple lid and got it over 6000psi even though the relief was probably 2000-3000psi, but the relief only protects the cylinders/hoses when the valve is open! This is the reason why crossover/cushion relief valves exist. If he put a relief there he would be unintentionally creating a 'cushion' valve of sorts. Which might be fine.. or might not.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Yes, BUT if you put an inline relief between the loader valve and the base end of the lift cylinders, not only will it limit your lift force to that relief setting, it will also crack open any time the 'external forces' on your lift cylinders cause pressure to spike beyond the relief setting. Messicks did a video a while back with a grapple lid and got it over 6000psi even though the relief was probably 2000-3000psi, but the relief only protects the cylinders/hoses when the valve is open! This is the reason why crossover/cushion relief valves exist. If he put a relief there he would be unintentionally creating a 'cushion' valve of sorts. Which might be fine.. or might not.

That would be a port relief and its commonly used to cushion shock loads and limit cylinder pressures in backhoe/excavator valves. He would need four of them. They are typically set considerably higher than inlet pressure because otherwise they WILL let your load drift.

Dan

 

[Whit]

I hope I am not highjacking this thread but there seems to be some really knowledgeable people in it.
I was linked to this thread from one I started about the stability of B7100 with aftermarket loader as it might be too heavy. I also mentioned there is an issue with the clutch. This is the thread here
The new to me B7100 has a metallic rattling noise when I push the clutch in, other than that the clutch and tractor works fine. I was suspecting it to be the thrust bearing. I am pretty sure I have ordered all the parts. Thrust bearing, clutch assembly pressure plate, and disk, pilot bushing etc I just need to figure out how to easily get the loader off and I am pretty sure I know how to split it.

Now I am concerned that maybe the loader has caused the clutch issue. What does everyone think of the loader sub frame and how it attaches to the tractor, is it braced enough? Could it cause a similar clutch issue as described in this thread?

Here is the pics of the loader sub frame.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Your loader could use axle bars, they would go from the crossover under the tractor to the rear axle.
Otherwise that's not too bad of a setup, it does have some spread to the mount which help.
The rattle can be the throw out bearing or it could be the joint at the front of the transmission.
Check it when you have it split because you can't service it unless it's split.

 

[Whit]

Your loader could use axle bars, they would go from the crossover under the tractor to the rear axle.
Otherwise that's not too bad of a setup, it does have some spread to the mount which help.
The rattle can be the throw out bearing or it could be the joint at the front of the transmission.
Check it when you have it split because you can't service it unless it's split.

Thanks for taking a look. Do you have any pics of what what axel bars look like or where I can find some?

What happens to the the joint at the front of the transmission and what part is it in the attached diagram? Part 23?

 

[torch]

Thanks for taking a look. Do you have any pics of what what axel bars look like or where I can find some?

The "axle bars" are not a bolt-on accessory. They are a feature of a well-designed subframe. Stiff steel bracing the tower support structure to the rear axle, bolting to the axle housing like so:

(not my photo, I borrowed it from another thread)

Here's a pic from my own build thread showing my not-yet-completed approach using doubled up heavy-wall 1" square tube instead of flat-bar:

 

[torch]

Oh, and as for the rattle: my noise occurred with the clutch pedal released, ie: clutch engaged and drive train under load. It was very loud, sounding rather as one might imagine the sound of the fan hitting the radiator, or a bag of rocks thrown into the engine. Louder than something I would call a "rattle".

You describe yours as occurring when the pedal is depressed, unloading the drive train (but loading the throwout bearing). I don't think yours is the same cause (but I could be wrong). I'm inclined to suspect the throw-out bearing.

I think the transmission joint Wolfman mentions may refer to the adapter between the engine and bell housing that I found to be warped on my machine in post 45 of this thread.

 

[torch]

I should mention that the warp pictured above was not immediately obvious when the plate was bolted to the engine. I'm not sure how much of that is because the engine helped reduce the warp and how much is because of the progressive lenses in my glasses. Don't get me wrong, progressives are way better than bi-focals IMHO, but grinding the lenses with a variable focus means my life does not include straight lines any more. Everything is bent.

 

[Lil Foot]

B7100 subframe for the B219 loader. Note the axle bars & diagonal bracing.

 

[Vigo]

I would suspect the horrible noise only when the clutch pedal is pushed is actually the pilot bearing, or.. lack thereof at this point.

 

[trial and error]

The great value of this as a learning experience for the rest of us is that people splitting these tractors for clutches or whatever else can now be aware of the POSSIBILITY of a bent 'motor plate' which could cause issues down the line. I know i said my loader subframe should make this failure nigh-impossible, but when i finally take it apart for a clutch im gonna check the plate out anyway!! Never would have thought to do that if not for this little contribution to the 'knowledge base'.

I have the older style subframe ( for a factory plow that goes from engine to rear axle, I've also tied from the front mount of that subframe to the "front box frame" due to a couple of the engine bolts being stripped, my question is, is this full length subframe sufficient for a homemade loader? Even though it doesn't have the center support brackets shown in some of the pictures of the b219 loader frame found online, where torch originally had his frame tied in woth those three bolts os what mine is missing, it just goes front to back wth significant cross bracing between the rails