Tesla I Ain’t…

[Gene Blister]

I want to plug my “homeowner grade” North 40 ag sprayer into the auxiliary 12v “cigarette lighter” plug on the right butt cheek fender of my 2019 B2601.

The male plug has a 5A fuse, the electric motor on the sprayer pump says 8amps maximum.
The pump has a pressure switch which turns off when the spray wand is not spraying.

The pump will run steady for a few minutes, then start to run intermittently and finally stop. This is when the fuse blows.

Is my problem that the amp output of the tractor’s dynamo is too high? Is there a “step down” device of some kind?

Anyone have any alternatives, like maybe just hooking up a small at battery to the pump separate from the tractor electrical system?

 

[ctfjr]

I think I would want to know what the voltage reading is at that plug while you were operating the sprayer. It also seems odd that the fuse supplied is so small compared to the max current draw of the motor.
Have you tried connecting the sprayer wiring directly to the battery? That alone would tell you a lot.

 

[Gene Blister]

I think I would want to know what the voltage reading is at that plug while you were operating the sprayer. It also seems odd that the fuse supplied is so small compared to the max current draw of the motor.
Have you tried connecting the sprayer wiring directly to the battery? That alone would tell you a lot.

It’s an after-market Chineeseum plug, and the only old school Luddite lighter plug I could find after searching 5 different auto parts stores and box stores in the area.

Attaching directly to the battery is the next step, but I’m worried about that max 8 amp rating on the motor.
Do you know the voltage and amperage at the aux. port on the b2601? Can’t seem to find anything in the manuals, and the dealer shop can’t be bothered.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Silly me, I downloaded the B201 owner's manual went to page #070, 'replacement fuses'.....
#3 down is the 'outlet(right side) 10 amps'....so TEN amps....

What's 'troubling' to me is that your sprayer manual says 'can draw 8 amps' yet they put a 5 amp in their fuse holder. I'd replace it with a 10 amp fuse.......
BTw the WSM is at kubotabooks.com ( I downloaded it too ) for the wiring diagram...

HTH
Jay

 

[lynnmor]

The pump will run steady for a few minutes, then start to run intermittently and finally stop. This is when the fuse blows.

Perhaps the motor is overloading because of bad bearings or friction in the pump.

 

[Gene Blister]

Silly me, I downloaded the B201 owner's manual went to page #070, 'replacement fuses'.....
#3 down is the 'outlet(right side) 10 amps'....so TEN amps....

What's 'troubling' to me is that your sprayer manual says 'can draw 8 amps' yet they put a 5 amp in their fuse holder. I'd replace it with a 10 amp fuse.......
BTw the WSM is at kubotabooks.com ( I downloaded it too ) for the wiring diagram...

HTH
Jay

Son of a gun - hiding in plain sight like that! Yep, there it is right in front of me in my own manual. 10 amps.
I‘ll pop a 10A in the plug, but won’t that put too much power to the motor? And wouldn’t hooking the pump directly to the battery do the same thing? Obviously, I’m absolutely ignorant about electricity…be gentle with me.

 

[85Hokie]

I‘ll pop a 10A in the plug, but won’t that put too much power to the motor? And wouldn’t hooking the pump directly to the battery do the same thing? Obviously, I’m absolutely ignorant about electricity…be gentle with me.

Let me see if I can help you understand the "flow" of amps - your pump calls for a max of 8 amps - think water, like a pump can pump 8 gallons per unit time - the well can fill 10 gallons per same unit time. So in this simple example the too much water in reserve does not change anything.

The amp is a unit of electron flow - so putting a 100 amp fuse in there does NOT change the flow - it simply burns up WHEN THAT amount of flow IS reached.

Now how does the fuse blow? When electron flow down a wire for a period of time - the electrons hit a small amount of resistance - and with ANY resistance, think being in a looooong slow line at the bank.... you get heated. The wire(s) will get warm - sometimes HOT, so the fuse actually melts when the amp flow is too great and generates too much heat. A 5 amp fuse will burn up or blow once the threshold of heat hits it, a 10 amp fuse will WITHSTAND a bit more heat be it burns.

You ALWAYS want a fuse to burn, blow before any damage happens to the wire!

HTH

 

[Speed25]

Yup, pretty much sums it up. The motor will only draw 8A, regardless of how much power is available. My concern is that the Chinesium plug had a 5A fuse, so the wiring in that plug might be too small to handle more amperage. Putting a 10A fuse in there might work for a bit, but it might be too much power for the wires and you risk melting the wires or worse.

 

[Gene Blister]

Thanks for the explanation, Hokie. So if more than 10 amps tries to go thru a 10A fuse it melts. But what if I put a correct 10A fuse in the 10A “cigarette lighter” circuit and connect to the 8A pump motor?

Same with directly connecting the pump to the tractors battery, bypassing any fuses.
Seems like I’ll lose a $100.00 pump rather than a $1.00 fuse.

I recall the wisdom of Mark Twain about now.
”If at first you don’t succeed, try, try again, then quit. No use being a damn fool about it.”

Let me see if I can help you understand the "flow" of amps - your pump calls for a max of 8 amps - think water, like a pump can pump 8 gallons per unit time - the well can fill 10 gallons per same unit time. So in this simple example the too much water in reserve does not change anything.

The amp is a unit of electron flow - so putting a 100 amp fuse in there does NOT change the flow - it simply burns up WHEN THAT amount of flow IS reached.

Now how does the fuse blow? When electron flow down a wire for a period of time - the electrons hit a small amount of resistance - and with ANY resistance, think being in a looooong slow line at the bank.... you get heated. The wire(s) will get warm - sometimes HOT, so the fuse actually melts when the amp flow is too great and generates too much heat. A 5 amp fuse will burn up or blow once the threshold of heat hits it, a 10 amp fuse will WITHSTAND a bit more heat be it burns.

You ALWAYS want a fuse to burn, blow before any damage happens to the wire!

HTH

 

[GrizBota]

The explanation given is correct. The pump is in no danger. Get a 7.5 amp fuse if it’s a big worry.

 

[chim]

"Aftermarket plug with a 5A fuse" might mean that the plug wasn't originally for the application.

I like the flat 2 trailer plugs for stuff like this. Observe polarity so the "hot" terminal fed from the tractor is the insulated one.

Amazon.com

 

[GeoHorn]

Hokie said it “generally” in a simple-to-understand example… he just didn’t get specific.

Volts is like water Pressure. Amps is like Volume (gallons). When you combine them into a circuit you must consider them as “multipliers”….. Volts X Amps = Watts (Watts are a unit to describe the ability to perform Work……like Gallons-per-minute at Pressure.)

The more pressure in a pipe….the need for stronger pipe with thicker walls.…. Wire Guage.

A Fuse is a ”safety-valve”….Too much volume (Amps) and the fuse melts…. NOT to protect your pump motor….. it ”blows” to protect the WIRE….(not the pump). IF the wire were allowed to carry more Amps than it’s Gauge would allow…the wire would overheat and perhaps create a Fire.)

The pump is designed/rated to perform a certain amount of Work. (Watts) If the VOLTS supplied to the pump should be reduced (I.E. your battery become depleted, etc) then the pump will attempt to continue it’s Work (Watts)….by drawing more Amps. (remember, V x A - W)
When those demands for More Amps exceed the Fuse-rating…. it Melts/Blows.

Speed25‘s example assumes the motor doesn’t have an internal ”short”…in which case it Definitely will request More than 8A.

I suspect your pump is rated to draw 8 Amps as a Maximum….AT the Minimum-rated Voltage…. that calculation being 8A. But if your pump is pulling More than your Dynamo can RE-SUPPLY to your battery…..then eventually the Voltage of the source will DROP…until the required AMPS necessary to meet the pump-motor’s Work (WATTS) …exceed the Fuse-Rating.

(Those dropping Volts are why your pump motor is intermittent. The volts drop below the motor’s necessary requirement the battery/dynamo can supply ….so the pump stops….. But that then allows the dynamo to bring the battery back Up to sufficient Voltage….so the pump-motor starts working again…. repeat/repeat….. until the Fuse Finally Says NO! (Too many little events of borderline heating, so it finally “blows”.)

Increasing the rating of the Fuse MIGHT be a temporary ”Fix”….but at the risk of melting your wire.

You need a greater-capacity battery….or dynamo….or both. OR…. you need to turn other electrical devices OFF while using your pump...Or…you should use your pump less-frequently (let the battery re-charge when the pump starts going intermittently)**…..so your battery/dynamo can keep-up with pump demands. (are your lights “on” while pumping…?)

** This is another opportunity to mention the ill-advised practice of Re-setting Circuit Breakers repeatedly.
While C.B.s are a convenient way to replace a Fuse… one hazard of them is that they are so-easy to quickly re-set. Each Time the C.B. is re-set, any situation in which over-taxed the system is also re-enabled. If the C.B. is repeatedly re-set…the condition in which the wire was taken to an over-heat condition can re-occur.
If the system-design used the minimal-gauge wire protected by the C.B….then the wire will reach it’s temperature-limit over and over and over again…. Possibly melting it’s insulation…and the Next C.B. re-set….. can cause sparks and fire. (Pilots are instructed so that if they experience a “popped” C.B. while in-fight…to FIRST consider if they really NEED that appliance in order to complete the flight.
If they don’t…then Do Not Re-Set that C.B. (In earlier times they were instructed it was “OK” to re-set a C.B. ONE TIME ONLY. That former practice is now discouraged …in favor of …”Do I Really Need this thing…?

 

[85Hokie]

Hokie said it “generally” in a simple-to-understand example… he just didn’t get specific.

Volts is like water Pressure. Amps is like Volume (gallons). When you combine them into a circuit you must consider them as “multipliers”….. Volts X Amps = Watts (Watts are a unit to describe the ability to perform Work……like Gallons-per-minute at Pressure.)

The more pressure in a pipe….the need for stronger pipe with thicker walls.…. Wire Guage.

A Fuse is a ”safety-valve”….Too much volume (Amps) and the fuse melts…. NOT to protect your pump motor….. it ”blows” to protect the WIRE….(not the pump). IF the wire were allowed to carry more Amps than it’s Gauge would allow…the wire would overheat and perhaps create a Fire.)

The pump is designed/rated to perform a certain amount of Work. (Watts) If the VOLTS supplied to the pump should be reduced (I.E. your battery become depleted, etc) then the pump will attempt to continue it’s Work (Watts)….by drawing more Amps. (remember, V x A - W)
When those demands for More Amps exceed the Fuse-rating…. it Melts/Blows.

Speed25‘s example assumes the motor doesn’t have an internal ”short”…in which case it Definitely will request More than 8A.

I suspect your pump is rated to draw 8 Ams as a Maximum….AT the Minimum-rated Voltage…. that calculation being 8A. But if your pump is pulling More than your Dynamo can RE-SUPPLY to your battery…..then eventually the Voltage of the source will DROP…until the required AMPS necessary to meet the pump-motor’s Work (WATTS) …exceed the Fuse-Rating.

(Those dropping Volts are why your pump motor is intermittent. The volts drop below the motor’s necessary requirement the battery/dynamo can supply ….so the pump stops….. But that then allows the dynamo to bring the battery back Up to sufficient Voltage….so the pump-motor starts working again…. repeat/repeat….. until the Fuse Finally Says NO! (Too many little events of borderline heating, so it finally “blows”.)

Increasing the rating of the Fuse MIGHT be a temporary ”Fix”….but at the risk of melting your wire.

You need a greater-capacity battery….or dynamo….or both. OR…. you need to turn other electrical devices OFF while using your pump...so your battery/dynamo can keep-up with pump demands. (are your lights “on” while pumping…?)

Well said Geo - sometimes simple is needed to get the point across as you well know! I like the KISS method Keep it simple, stupid - remember, the OP has little if any understanding of Volt and Amps and Watts.

Now on that SPECIIFIC machine - the max output is 14 amps, now we have to look at how many amps the dynamo WILL produce at a VERY specific RPM.

ON my much old B7100 - if I fire it up at idle, the volt meter that I installed will read battery voltage - ZERO charging is occurring, I have to get it to at least half throttle before the dynamo generates 12.8 volts .......... once I get close to WOT it will now show 14.4 volts.

So, Gene - I would start running your B2601 at a MUCH HIGHER rpm when using the ag sprayer - you will find that IT should not slow down and will work very well in the future.

 

[ctfjr]

Try this simple test

Find another known good source to plug that plug into - like your car if it has a socket. If it works then the problem is in your tractor side. If it still doesn't then its in the sprayer.

@GeoHorn
Not sure I would agree with this:
The more pressure in a pipe….the need for stronger pipe with thicker walls.…. Wire Guage.
If you said insulation. . . .

 

[GeoHorn]

Try this simple test

Find another known good source to plug that plug into - like your car if it has a socket. If it works then the problem is in your tractor side. If it still doesn't then its in the sprayer.

@GeoHorn
Not sure I would agree with this:
The more pressure in a pipe….the need for stronger pipe with thicker walls.…. Wire Guage.
If you said insulation. . . .

Don’t know where you’re going with that insulation-comment. Insulation doesn’t improve the Ampacity of the conductor. If there’s zero insulation…the wire will carry current just fine as long as it doesn’t touch some other conductor.… but if excess current is allowed into that wire…it will possibly become incandescent and fail…. even if it HAS insulation. In-fact, excess insulation DEcreases the conductors ability to shed heat. (Why do you suppose the power company does not apply insulation directly to high-tension wires?…. among other things, It’s unnecessary and it retains heat.)

Increased wire Gauge allows higher current (to a point… at higher voltages a solid conductor becomes unnecessary and heavy…. tubing is used because the electrons tend to flow along the outer surface. Look at the large transformers at substations and notice how tubing is used between the equipment rather than cable.

 

[Gary Olson]

Perhaps the motor is overloading because of bad bearings or friction in the pump.

This is my assessment also. You can increase the wire size or fuse size or test power supply or all that; but appears the motor is drawing more power the longer it runs. That's mechanical failure.

 

[ctfjr]

Don’t know where you’re going with that insulation-comment. Insulation doesn’t improve the Ampacity of the conductor. If there’s zero insulation…the wire will carry current just fine as long as it doesn’t touch some other conductor.… but if excess current is allowed into that wire…it will possibly become incandescent and fail…. even if it HAS insulation. In-fact, excess insulation DEcreases the conductors ability to shed heat. (Why do you suppose the power company does not apply insulation directly to high-tension wires?…. among other things, It’s unnecessary and it retains heat.)

Increased wire Gauge allows higher current (to a point… at higher voltages a solid conductor becomes unnecessary and heavy…. tubing is used because the electrons tend to flow along the outer surface. Look at the large transformers at substations and notice how tubing is used between the equipment rather than cable.

I think we are just missing each other here Geo.

I interpreted your comment, " The more pressure in a pipe….the need for stronger pipe with thicker walls .…. Wire Guage " as an analogy of water to electricity.
With that analogy the pressure in a pipe for water would be voltage for electricity. Therefore you might need a higher insulation rating. It would have nothing to do with the current flow, which would require a bigger pipe (wire).
An example would be transmission lines. There the 'pressure' is very high but the conductors not so. The insulation does have to be beefed up.

 

[85Hokie]

I learned a long time ago .......... that 600volt rating on the side of most household wire - has nothing to do with the wire!!!! It has all to do with the voltage JUMPING through the insulation.....

You could run 10,000 volts down a 12g wire - not sure I want to be near it however!

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Probably the pump specs are....
5 amps for running
8 amps for start/stall

Simply replace the 5 amp one with a 10 amp

Tractor will supply up to 10 amps from the acc socket.It was designed to do so !
Pump will 'draw' what it needs.. Briefly 8 amps at start then 5 amps running.

The problem is the supplied 5 amp fuse is quick blow and won't handle the short term 'start up' current demand of 8 amps. Now a 'slo-blo' 5 amp fuse might be fine though you should do a very detailed bench test to see WHICH slo-blo fuse would be best suited for the job.

You could easily spend 3-4 months on this or.. simple replace with 10 amp fuse. If the pump tries to draw more than 10 amps, either fuse will blow and tractor is safe.

 

[GeoHorn]

I think we are just missing each other here Geo.

I interpreted your comment, " The more pressure in a pipe….the need for stronger pipe with thicker walls .…. Wire Guage " as an analogy of water to electricity.
With that analogy the pressure in a pipe for water would be voltage for electricity. Therefore you might need a higher insulation rating. It would have nothing to do with the current flow, which would require a bigger pipe (wire).
An example would be transmission lines. There the 'pressure' is very high but the conductors not so. The insulation does have to be beefed up.

You are correct in your critique…..I mis-spoke/mis-wrote that. Higher voltage does NOT require larger gauge wire.
What I MEANT to convey was higher Amperage …requires greater wire gauge. Sorry about the mental-short-circuit I had back there.