Snowplow Operation Using Third Function Front End Remotes

[Muskeg]

Hi Folks,

I recently acquired a tractor/skid steer plow with single-line hydraulic cylinders. The cylinder lines appear to feed into a cross over relief valve before heading to the male and female hydraulic connections. On my tractor, an MX5100, I've installed front end remotes operated from a spool valve and controlled at the joystick. I With this setup, I'm unable to operate the plow as the cylinders end up fighting against each other. The plow setup is a Diamond by Meyer build specifically for tractors and skidsteer which I purchased secondhand w/out seeing it operate first. I've attached some pics and am hoping somebody can help sort out what I'm doing wrong and what plumbing detail I need to add. Any help would be appreciated

 

[GreensvilleJay]

When you push joystick to the left, it should send oil to the right cylinder ,plow moves left, and the plow pushes the left cylinder which pushes its oil back into the valve.
When you move joystick to the right, oil goes to the left cylinder......right one returns its oil.

Think of the two cylinders being a 'double acting' cylinder......

Never had a 'cross over relief valve' on any of my CJ-5 / snowplow rigs......

 

[Muskeg]

I should have explained better. At the joystick I've got two buttons that control the spool valve which feeds to my font end remotes where the two plow lines are plugged into. The actual joystick controls the loader like regular but not the plow.

I understand what you're saying, how the cylinders should operate in unison. My problem is that they are not acting in unison.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I should have explained better. At the joystick I've got two buttons that control the spool valve which feeds to my font end remotes where the two plow lines are plugged into. The actual joystick controls the loader like regular but not the plow.

I understand what you're saying, how the cylinders should operate in unison. My problem is that they are not acting in unison.

Nice rig snd should work fine with your third function.

The crossover relief (AKA cushion valve) is a nice feature and provides breakaway protection to prevent damage if you hit somrthing big or immovable with one end of the plow.

The two 3rd function hoses should go to the two "valve" ports on one end of the crossover and the two hoses on the cylinder side of the ctossover go to the left and right single acting cylinders. That circuot is about as simple as it gets. Is that how you are plumbed?

Dan

 

[Muskeg]

Nice rig snd should work fine with your third function.

The crossover relief (AKA cushion valve) is a nice feature and provides breakaway protection to prevent damage if you hit somrthing big or immovable with one end of the plow.

The two 3rd function hoses should go to the two "valve" ports on one end of the crossover and the two hoses on the cylinder side of the ctossover go to the left and right single acting cylinders. That circuot is about as simple as it gets. Is that how you are plumbed?

Dan

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the post. I like that you say " it should work". I third valve hoses are connected to one side of the crossover and plow hoses are connected to the other side. But that doesn't seem to work. I'm thinking I should attach one cylinder hose and one third valve hose to the same side and vice versa. The only time it worked was when I had a blown hose. One direction angled great with a nice oil gyser!

 

[TheOldHokie]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the post. I like that you say " it should work". I third valve hoses are connected to one side of the crossover and plow hoses are connected to the other side. But that doesn't seem to work. I'm thinking I should attach one cylinder hose and one third valve hose to the same side and vice versa. The only time it worked was when I had a blown hose. One direction angled great with a nice oil gyser!

Every one I have ever seen are plumbed like this. They are simple straight pass through blocks and the reliefs open under pressure to comnect the high pressure side to the other side


Dan

 

[mcmxi]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the post. I like that you say " it should work". I third valve hoses are connected to one side of the crossover and plow hoses are connected to the other side. But that doesn't seem to work. I'm thinking I should attach one cylinder hose and one third valve hose to the same side and vice versa. The only time it worked was when I had a blown hose. One direction angled great with a nice oil gyser!

I have a Land Pride STB1596 hydraulic snow blade with a cushion valve that I run on the front of the MX6000 using the 3rd function connectors on the loader. The parts manual has a good schematic of the hose routing which should be standard. It works really well.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I have a Land Pride STB1596 hydraulic snow blade with a cushion valve that I run on the front of the MX6000 using the 3rd function connectors on the loader. The parts manual has a good schematic of the hose routing which should be standard. It works really well.

View attachment 143620

View attachment 143622

View attachment 143621

The OP has a Meyer snowplow with an SSQA mount and the same opposed single acting angling cylinder setup that they have used for about 75 years. The angling system is used on a gadzillion truck plows and the hose routing is butt simple.

 

[Muskeg]

Thanks for the schematic. I agree, you can't get any simpler! Once daylight comes, I'll try moving hoses around on the cushion valve. The schematic showing single hoses is exactly what I have. I'm thinking I need some sort of relief valve for oil that's being forced back when the blade is turned. Possibly my issue is the spool valve I'm using to operate my third function remotes.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Yo

Thanks for the schematic. I agree, you can't get any simpler! Once daylight comes, I'll try moving hoses around on the cushion valve. The schematic showing single hoses is exactly what I have. I'm thinking I need some sort of relief valve for oil that's being forced back when the blade is turned. Possibly my issue is the spool valve I'm using to operate my third function remotes.

If you want to get this working quit guessing. You need nothing but what is in that diagram.

If you are using a diverter and the Kubota loader valve for the third function you will have a problem. Lets see a picture of your third function valve.

Dan

 

[Muskeg]

Yo

If you want to get this working quit guessing. You need nothing but what is in that diagram.

If you are using a diverter and the Kubota loader valve for the third function you will have a problem. Lets see a picture of your third function valve.

Dan

Here's a pic of the spool valve used to divert flow between the two remote ports.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Here's a pic of the spool valve used to divert flow between the two remote ports.

That is a double acting directional control valve not a diverter and will work fine with your plow.

If you plumb the cushion valve as I diagramed and hook it to your third function outlets it should angle both leftv as nd right. If it does not there is a connectivity problem somewhere in the circuit. A few simple tests will identify where that ptoblem is.

Dan

 

[GreensvilleJay]

OK.. you CAN make it simpler.......

replumb to bypass the 'fancy block on the blade'.

ELIMINATE it and test. You cannot hurt anything with it gone.
Heck I plowed 1,000s of lots without one of them ! 6'" Meyers blade on a CJ-5, pure hydraulic setup.

If the joystick controls turns the blade, it's the 'fancy block on the blade', or how it's connected.

If the joystick doesn't move the blade, it's probably 3rd function wiring or plumbing.

 

[TheOldHokie]

OK.. you CAN make it simpler.......

replumb to bypass the 'fancy block on the blade'.

ELIMINATE it and test. You cannot hurt anything with it gone.
Heck I plowed 1,000s of lots without one of them ! 6'" Meyers blade on a CJ-5, pure hydraulic setup.

If the joystick controls turns the blade, it's the 'fancy block on the blade', or how it's connected.

If the joystick doesn't move the blade, it's probably 3rd function wiring or plumbing.

That is a simple test and worth conducting.

But the "fancy block" is actually quite simple and a very desirable option. You will find them on just about all qualty commercial plows sold today. They protect the plow assembly and control valves from the very real possibility of impact damage.

The block consists of two straight through passages with opposed relief valves that provide oneway crossover paths between the two sides of the circuit.

The only way it will block angling operation is if one or both reliefs is hung in the open position. If that happens you wind up pressurizing both cylinders at the same time anf the fix is to replace the defective relief cartridge(s).

Dan

 

[mcmxi]

The OP has a Meyer snowplow with an SSQA mount and the same opposed single acting angling cylinder setup that they have used for about 75 years. The angling system is used on a gadzillion truck plows and the hose routing is butt simple.

View attachment 143624

That is a simple system compared to Land Pride and similar heavier duty models that have double acting cylinders, pushing with one cylinder and pulling with the other when angling the blade. The lower end STB10 series which are narrower and lighter are available with single acting cylinders with a cushion valve as well.

 

[TheOldHokie]

That is a simple system compared to Land Pride and similar heavier duty models that have double acting cylinders, pushing with one cylinder and pulling with the other when angling the blade. The lower end STB10 series which are narrower and lighter are available with single acting cylinders with a cushion valve as well.

I have never figured out why you would want two double acting cylinders.

Dan

 

[mcmxi]

I have never figured out why you would want two double acting cylinders.

Dan

HLA hydraulic angle snow blades models 3000 and up use two double acting cylinders for angle. A single acting cylinder has to push the blade and compress the opposing cylinder right? If the blade is meeting resistance from whatever's being pushed, that only increases the load on the cylinder. Also, I wonder about the balance of the forces about pins and such. With two double-acting cylinders there should be equal moments about the king pin.

 

[TheOldHokie]

HLA hydraulic angle snow blades models 3000 and up use two double acting cylinders for angle. A single acting cylinder has to push the blade and compress the opposing cylinder right? If the blade is meeting resistance from whatever's being pushed, that only increases the load on the cylinder. Also, I wonder about the balance of the forces about pins and such. With two double-acting cylinders there should be equal moments about the king pin.

The opposing cylinder presents no load. The cylinder moment balance on a DA setup is better but nowhere close to equal. A typical push-pull ratio would be something like 4:1. You are also reducing the column load capacity of the cylinders by a lot.

Angling cylinders on most everything up through Class 7 truck plows are single acting. At Class 8 you start seeing more double acting cylinders because the widths are getting quite wide.

On an SSQA tractor plow DA cylinders buy you nothing worth the added cost and complexity.

Dan

 

[Sidekick]

I just picked up a Curtis and it has a very simple blowoff valve that just tees in with single acting cylinders. Looks like Joe plumbed it with iron fittings .

 

[mcmxi]

The opposing cylinder presents no load. The cylinder moment balance on a DA setup is better but nowhere close to equal. A typical push-pull ratio would be something like 4:1. You are also reducing the column load capacity of the cylinders by a lot.

Angling cylinders on most everything up through Class 7 truck plows are single acting. At Class 8 you start seeing more double acting cylinders because the widths are getting quite wide.

On an SSQA tractor plow DA cylinders buy you nothing worth the added cost and complexity.

Dan

The cylinders on my snow blade have a 2" bore and 1-1/8" rods so the push/pull ratio, based on surface area of the piston face front and back is around 1.5 to 1.

I don't consider my blade to be commercial grade, merely high-end residential grade at a listed weight of 625lb. It would be interesting to sit down with the engineers who designed the STB15 series and ask them why they offer the blade with two double acting cylinders.

The same conversation with HLA engineers would also be interesting. HLA's 96" 3000 series is 1,130lb and HLA states that the blade is rated for Ag tractors ranging from 4,000lb to a max of 13,000lb operating weight so appropriate for either of my tractors given FEL ratings. HLA has a good reputation and are certainly thought of as being snow removal experts and no doubt know what they're doing. Why the two double acting cylinders on blades with widths ranging from 72" to 120"?