Small engine Gurus...HELP!

L.C. Gray

New member

Equipment
L3400, RTV500
May 14, 2016
105
0
0
Stephenville, Texas
Been going nutz trying to fix problems with a small engine. I spent 3 weeks off and on trying to fix it, was totally stumped. Now the shop's had it 3 more weeks and they aren't doing much better.

Engine: 23hp V-Twin Kawasaki FR730V 2 yrs old, low hours

Symptom: Cranks up cold, runs fine for 10-15 mins then stumbles like its running out of fuel and dies within 30 seconds. Will restart then run a short way then do it again repeatedly. Will try to struggle to run with some choke added in but will ultimately die.

What I did: Checked for adequate fuel level in float bowl, checked for water in float bowl, checked for water in fuel tank, cleaned carburetor, cleaned fuel tank, checked fuel tank pickup for obstruction, checked fuel tank vent line for obstruction, checked fuel tank vent, checked fuel line for obstruction, tested crankcase vacuum pulse, tested fuel pump, replaced fuel pump, replaced fuel line, replaced fuel filter replaced fuel tank vent line, tested fuel shutoff solenoid, disabled fuel shutoff solenoid, looked for an electronic ignition box (none), checked for spark while its dying. Nothing I've done has made a difference so I took it to the "pros".

Shop has done: Leakdown test, first said it had 20% or less leakdown. After they tinkered with it for several days they wanted to put a new carburetor on it at a cost of $340. I asked them to explain how it runs fine at full power for 10-15 minutes before suddenly shutting down when it hits operating temperature. They can't, but assured me a new carburetor will fix it. After waiting a week beyond the time it should have been fixed with the new carburetor, they called and said the carburetor didn't fix the issue. They are now saying one cylinder has 20% blow by and the other has 40% blow by and this is causing too much crankcase pressure to the point it builds up and overwhelms the induction system bogging the engine down. I've told them that I don't see how this could logically happen and they say while they understand it, they can't explain it. So now they want to either overhaul the engine or replace it with a new one. I have suggested the possibility that whatever it is that comprises the electronics of the ignition could be getting hot and altering timing or intensity of the spark. They are saying no way, no how, that these engines never have ignition trouble. They also point to the choke affecting the condition says it is a fuel and only a fuel problem.

I'm really frustrated with these guys and told them I thought I was taking it to people who knew more than me so that I didn't have to find the problem through the process of parts changing elimination, but that's what they seem to be doing. There's no way this engine is worn to the point of needing to be overhauled/replaced.
 
Last edited:

Tooljunkie

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Lifetime Member

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L1501,home built carry all, mini plow blade.
May 13, 2014
4,150
33
48
60
Lac Du Bonnet, Manitoba,Canada
Easy test-gravity feed the carburetor. No fuel pump no nothing just let gravity feed fuel. Or electric fuel pump.

My 18 hp briggs wont always pull fuel,havent got to the bottom of it yet, as soon as i figure out why its not charging im going for an electric pump.

Those ignition systems have an "ignitor" built into the coil, some are seperate. They go bad. Now im thinking back to a JD 930 series front mount mower, certain it was kawa powered,fuel issue was a cracked fuel line.
 

Apogee

Member

Equipment
B6100, B7100, B8200, B9200, G4200, L175, L35
Jan 22, 2012
518
0
16
Tacoma, WA
Bad ignition coil/pickup/ignitor.

Easy way to check if its a carb issue. Run it and wait for it die. Once it does, try starting/running it using starting fluid. If it stays running its fuel related. If not, it's likely ignition related.

One other thing to consider, and I don't know this particular engine, or whether or not is has a hydraulic valve train. I have a Kohler right now that loses compression once it gets hot. In researching the problem I've read that occasionally the oil pressure relief valves stick and when they do the hydraulic lifters pump up too much and hold the valves open. Once this happens the motor either loses or has no compression. These match the symptoms the seller of the motor I just bought described but I've yet to tear into mine to figure it out.

Based on your description I'm betting a bad coil or ignitor.

Please keep us posted as this is interesting.

Kind regards,

Steve
 

Fastdonzi

Member

Equipment
New Grand L3560
Dec 4, 2015
64
1
6
East Tn
I don't know this motor, but it sure sounds like a coil going bad. Ive had it happen on a car and a riding mower, Run fine until up to temp then die, after cooling a bit it'll run then die.. a carb issue wouldn't vary with temp like that.... Good Luck...
 

Tooljunkie

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L1501,home built carry all, mini plow blade.
May 13, 2014
4,150
33
48
60
Lac Du Bonnet, Manitoba,Canada
When you mentioned fuel cutoff valve, the only way i ever successfully bypassed one was remove it and clip off pintle with side cutters. Then there is no question. Only thing is backfire so it needs to idle a bit before shutdown.
 

lugbolt

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Equipment
ZG127S-54
Oct 15, 2015
5,205
1,889
113
Mid, South, USA
Runs for a length of time, then you said it "sputters" and within 30 seconds dies. When it starts to sputter, does using the choke smooth it back out temporarily? If it does, you have a fuel system problem for sure.

I use a nurse tank for doing this. An old IV stand with an old lawn mower tank mounted to it, with a shutoff valve and enough hose to reach to the floor, maybe a little more. It comes in handy. While you are feeding it from a nurse tank, run your fuel line from the fuel pump into a container, and watch your fuel flow. Especially when the engine gets hot and begins to die (if it does). If your fuel flow decreases, then you have a problem between the engine and the fuel tank. Pump, filter, lines, etc. Could also be fuel boiling in the lines, and this can be a problem especially that certain parts of the country have already begun to switch to winter blended gasoline-which can boil at as low as 80 degrees F. You'd want to isolate the lines away from the hot engine parts to alleviate the possibility of boiling fuel. I fought this exact problem with a T1760 that I owned for a while...was boiling the fuel. Re-routed fuel line and the problem disappeared.
 

alansz400

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Equipment
B7500. FEL, Piranha tooth bar, box scraper, post hole digger, 3 pt. bucket
Oct 26, 2013
265
0
0
Loudonville OHIO
I have a 12 hp briggs on my mower and that thing drove me nuts doing the same things you are talking about. I changed the carb. the coil, checked the valves everything I could think of. It always had weak spark, kind of a red spark not a blue spark but always has spark. Turns out the kill switch wire on the engine was loose and not making a good connection. Wow 2 years of cussing that POS and all that work came down to a loose wire. I am guessing that is also why the PO took it to the auction. Any ways runs great now.
 

William1

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BX25D
Jul 28, 2015
1,117
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Richmond, Virginia
All the earmarks of an electrical problem. As it heats up, it fails, probably the crank position sensor (or stator coil, depending on design).
 

rentthis

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May 30, 2012
1,007
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summerville,sc
Honda engines have a screw in piece in the spark plug boot where it connects to the plug. I don't know what it's supposed to do, resistor, etc. They occasionally fail. You screw them out with a screwdriver and replace them. I have always had one laying around so I have never had to investigate what it is. You may have one or both failing. Most of the time they completely fail. sometimes they just give problems. this is at best a shot in the dark. I have, over the years heard engine mfg reps say that it's impossible for their ignition modules to fail. I have owned hundreds of small engines and can tell you first hand that is bull crap. It doesn't happen often but it does happen. Did your new carburetor come with a new fuel shut off solenoid? They have a way testing good and not working. What you described would direct me to that first.
 

L.C. Gray

New member

Equipment
L3400, RTV500
May 14, 2016
105
0
0
Stephenville, Texas
The new carburetor did have a new shutoff solenoid on it.

I had tested the original fuel shutoff solenoid and it was functioning properly. On the chance that maybe it was heating up and possibly failing, I nipped the needle off to test the theory, it made no difference.

I'm going to pick up the machine and in order: 1) check for crankcase pressure building up, mainly just to disprove their theory, 2) test using an electric fuel pump to run on, 3) change out both coil modules, 4) mix up 1 lb of Tannerite attach to fuel tank and pop it with a rifle from 100 yds and take the insurance payoff.
 

Billdog350

Member

Equipment
Kubota L3710 HST,L2230A QT,forks,Takeuchi TB125, 60" Luck Now pto Snowblower
Jan 6, 2014
468
10
18
East Hampton, CT
I hate those Kawi twins. I just fixed a friends V twin Kawi that the timing gear had spun on the crank! sucking air in the muffler and blowing out the carb! Took a bit to figure that one out since the motor was a new replacement from Kawi and the gears were dot to dot on the camshaft.....

I have heard valves too tight can also cause your exact symptoms.

Lastly, this sounds stupid but have you put NEW plugs in it? I just finally fixed my Robin/Fuji/Subaru V twin Hobart generator which had a horrible backfire when warm, never cold, and it ended up being the plugs.

The friend's Kawi, even after I fixed his crank still didn't have good power...ended up being a weak coil. It would fire but would lose power when you turned the blades on....

They are known for weak coils, I'd definitely look there first.
 

L.C. Gray

New member

Equipment
L3400, RTV500
May 14, 2016
105
0
0
Stephenville, Texas
An update....

I picked the machine up this morning, stopped by NAPA on the way home and bought a small electric fuel pump. With the electric pump installed in place of the vacuum pump, I cranked it up and mowed 2 acres without a hitch at all. Seems to be completely cured. My shop bill was $43, which I think is fair, but I won't be back to a shop who can't do their diagnostic work at a professional level.
 

Greenhead

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Equipment
L4400, MX5100
Oct 13, 2014
193
0
16
Fond du Lac, WI
I'm glad you got it going again. I was going to say change the gas cap. If it's not venting properly it would give you that symptom. The electric pump you installed is probably more powerful to overcome the problem that still exists.
 

L.C. Gray

New member

Equipment
L3400, RTV500
May 14, 2016
105
0
0
Stephenville, Texas
It has a vent line on the tank that goes to the filtered air inlet ahead of the carb. That line was replaced and the fittings into the tank and inlet were verified to be clean and clear. Testing was done with the cap left loose to allow excessive venting. Made no difference.

In the end the simple answer as to what was happening went right back to the most basic symptom, it was starving for fuel. The vacuum pump just wasn't quite capable of keeping the float bowl full enough with some run time. Why exactly I'm not sure, whether the pump was just marginally sized for the hp of the engine or if something was causing the vacuum pulse to be weak with run time/temperature. It had been acting up for a while prior to just getting to the point of shutting down. All I know is it finally lives again an runs stronger than it has in quite a while thanks to my fitting it with its new "pacemaker".
 

Tooljunkie

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Equipment
L1501,home built carry all, mini plow blade.
May 13, 2014
4,150
33
48
60
Lac Du Bonnet, Manitoba,Canada
Im experiencing the same issue with a 16 hp briggs.carb was dirty,looked like gelled water droplets. Cleaned and flushed everything. Unfortunately i cant get pickup out of tank or remove tank for that matter. The generator/alternator is not charging due to an open circuit under flywheel. Parts coming, once voltage is back up i will likely be installing electric pump also.