Rural water pressure from well and how to improve

[RCW]

Sorry I even posted this...... most everyone is an expert and few feel they can learn.
If anyone has personal questions PM me and I will do my best to assist.
Dave

@Dave_eng - I really appreciate you posting this as I had no idea of its existence for the application.

I’m no electrical expert but sometimes still get inquiries about water wells 25 years after they were part of my customary responsibilities.

Your post brought me into the 21st century.

 

[GeoHorn]

…. Typical city water pressure is above 70psi, often quite a bit higher.

That last statement is misleading… because, although the municipal lines may be higher….the inlet to residences is reduced by regulation at the Meter to typically 50-60 psi.

 

[BAP]

Sorry I even posted this...... most everyone is an expert and few feel they can learn.
If anyone has personal questions PM me and I will do my best to assist.
Dave

Dave, your posting is very interesting, particularly how technology has changed the way water systems are set up. Unfortunately, there is always a few on OTT who think that they are better than the rest and go out of their way to make sure everyone knows that they know more than everyone else does. They will argue tooth and nails that only they know the correct way to do things. This has become more prevalent over the last few years and is a reflection upon the climate of thought in the world today.

 

[D2Cat]

That last statement is misleading… because, although the municipal lines may be higher….the inlet to residences is reduced by regulation at the Meter to typically 50-60 psi.

Or less !

 

[wp6529]

Dave, your posting is very interesting, particularly how technology has changed the way water systems are set up. Unfortunately, there is always a few on OTT who think that they are better than the rest and go out of their way to make sure everyone knows that they know more than everyone else does. They will argue tooth and nails that only they know the correct way to do things. This has become more prevalent over the last few years and is a reflection upon the climate of thought in the world today.

There is a difference between arguing which way is best and correcting factually incorrect information such as the claimed electricity savings with a variable speed pump.

I never said one way was better than the other, I clarified that the more expensive variable speed system gets you no noticeable pressure changes only, it is strictly a "luxury" upgrade not a functional or energy saving one.

If you want the nice (mostly) constant water pressure of the variable speed system, also consider other luxuries such as hot water recirculation loops so you don't wait for the hot water to reach the faucet, and hot water mixing valves on the toilet feed to prevent condensation on the toilet tank.

Buy the base model car or spend the extra for the top end options, you still have the same basic get you from point A to point B functionality.

 

[lynnmor]

I have hesitated to bring up the real problem. 40 to 60 psi is quite enough for folks that do not waste water. If the plumbing has adequate sized pipes, valves and fixtures there will be enough flow, if inadequate fix that problem.

 

[JohnDB]

Sorry I even posted this...... most everyone is an expert and few feel they can learn.

Like others I appreciate your willingness to share, and other's willingness to discuss. Debate is great for getting a range of views, and in the process of reading your thread I've learned a lot. So please don't be shy about further postings on the same or different topics.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

re-reading from the original post
...
One brother frequently has nieces and nephews staying over and wanting to use water at same time.
...
This is a VOLUME problem, not a pressure problem.

It is possible that the entire house is plumbed with 1/2" copper,like mine, so opening 2 or more taps reduces water flow to all of the taps and closest to the pump 'wins the water'. Increasing the pressure can push the water further,but won't increase the GPM, except that the water gets upstairs faster.
Other tidbit is that the pump is rated for xx GPM. That's really the starting point. If it's rated for 6 GPM, no way you'll get 10 GPM out of it.
To get more water(GPM) you need to increase the pipe diameter. double the diameter, x4..triple = x9.
Wife wanted to water her veggies. She laid out 1200' of weeping hose all in series(end to end to end to ...) connects to well pump fed from 2000g tank. hmm, didn't work. I made a header from 1.5" ABS, 9 takeoffs, each 100-130' long. Works like a charm ,ALL the veggies were happy.
Every new house today is 'PEX plumbed' and has manifolds to allow the 3/8" PEX to 'work better than copper'.

Most (all ?) faucets and shower heads today have restricters in them , like 2.5GPM.Those allow better distribution of the water

 

[wp6529]

"Every new house today is 'PEX plumbed' and has manifolds to allow the 3/8" PEX to 'work better than copper'."

The key here is that the fixtures i.e. sink, shower, etc. are home-run connected directly back to a manifold that has a large diameter and is supplied from a large diameter pipe from the source pressure tank or meter.

Not all new construction uses the home run and manifolds since they cost more than the old trunk type setup. The buss type setup can work just fine if that trunk line is sufficiently large to not introduce a flow restriction i.e. a 1" trunk with reducing T connections feeding the 1/2 or 3/8 PEX to the fixtures. Essentially a long manifold and using less pipe than all the home run connections.

The home run / manifold setup does have the advantage of eliminating most of the buried joints that can be future leaks.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

OK... all of the new homes built next to me(4) , use the manifold/home run system.
Has to be cheaper,er higher profit, as these were all Dutch builders.
Running PEX is fast, cutting/connecting/crimping is slow. Guys did 3 story house(2+bsmt) in a day,NO joints in runs !

 

[lynnmor]

re-reading from the original post
...
One brother frequently has nieces and nephews staying over and wanting to use water at same time.
...
This is a VOLUME problem, not a pressure problem.

It is possible that the entire house is plumbed with 1/2" copper,like mine, so opening 2 or more taps reduces water flow to all of the taps and closest to the pump 'wins the water'. Increasing the pressure can push the water further,but won't increase the GPM, except that the water gets upstairs faster.
Other tidbit is that the pump is rated for xx GPM. That's really the starting point. If it's rated for 6 GPM, no way you'll get 10 GPM out of it.
To get more water(GPM) you need to increase the pipe diameter. double the diameter, x4..triple = x9.
Wife wanted to water her veggies. She laid out 1200' of weeping hose all in series(end to end to end to ...) connects to well pump fed from 2000g tank. hmm, didn't work. I made a header from 1.5" ABS, 9 takeoffs, each 100-130' long. Works like a charm ,ALL the veggies were happy.
Every new house today is 'PEX plumbed' and has manifolds to allow the 3/8" PEX to 'work better than copper'.

Most (all ?) faucets and shower heads today have restricters in them , like 2.5GPM.Those allow better distribution of the water

Finally after nearly 50 posts we are getting back to reality. I knew it was a flow issue immediately but if one wants to waste money with a high pressure system, and possibly add new problems, then they should go ahead.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Well (yes, pun intended ) it's a lot easier to 'crank up the pressure' than to properly replumb a whole house !!!!!

 

[Donystoy]

Glad I stayed out of this discussion. I like my tried-and-true system of 40# on and 60# off. This actually is better for the garden irrigation system as it varies the coverage pattern. As for inside the house with all the restrictors I see no recognizable change, As for PEX I am old school and only have copper in the house. My insurance company charges a premium if I have any PEX in the pressure system.

 

[Gary Olson]

Interesting discussion.
I'd like to expand my water system to include storage tanks and segregate the usage; eg 500 gal tank for the house, 500 gal tank for gardens/grazing animals. Then use independent pressure pumps from the different tanks. A high pressure pump into a filtering system for the house; not so high pressure for the (planned) ag stuff. Compared to the current single 20A well pump and 45 gal pressure tank.

This allows filling the tanks during the wet season; and pulling less from the well during the 30 day dry period(s). Is this unreasonable or overcomplicated?

 

[GreensvilleJay]

For the garden I had a 2000g steel tank on a semi frame capture water from 1/2 the shop roof, so 2-3 rains it'd be full. I offloaded that into 10 IBC totes(200g each ). Mother Nature would refill the tank. I used a Berkley brand well pump to transfer the water as well as water the 1/4ac garden and the 3 giant pumpkins.
If you decide to use IBC totes, be sure they all have the same 2" outlet ! I had THREE different versions....sigh.
I currently have 2 in tandem off the garage for another garden. Warm ,soft rainwater is easier on plants than COLD, hard well water and...it's free !

 

[hagrid]

@Dave_eng, please take an axe or sledgehammer to the delightful sub-drive you just installed. Upon the remnants of that component please install a 30 gallon bladder tank and a 40/60 single phase pump controller.

Also, pictures or a tastefully composed video of the carnage and aftermath would be greatly appreciated.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

@Dave_eng, please take an axe or sledgehammer to the delightful sub-drive you just installed. Upon the remnants of that component please install a 30 gallon bladder tank and a 40/60 single phase pump controller.

Also, pictures or a tastefully composed video of the carnage and aftermath would be greatly appreciated.

For those that don't know...
This is Hagrid at his best!
And Yes it's a JOKE folks!

 

[Dave_eng]

Interesting discussion.
I'd like to expand my water system to include storage tanks and segregate the usage; eg 500 gal tank for the house, 500 gal tank for gardens/grazing animals. Then use independent pressure pumps from the different tanks. A high pressure pump into a filtering system for the house; not so high pressure for the (planned) ag stuff. Compared to the current single 20A well pump and 45 gal pressure tank.

This allows filling the tanks during the wet season; and pulling less from the well during the 30 day dry period(s). Is this unreasonable or overcomplicated?

Consider incorporating Dole Flow control orifices in your system. What they will do for you is to not let a well pump deliver more than the orifice rating over a wide range of pressures

The Dole Valves Flow Control Regulator from Invensys Controls is the industry standard for delivering a constant volume of water flow over a wide pressure range. The Flow Regulator's control mechanism is a flexible orifice which varies its effective area inversely to the applied pressure.

When you see the device you will be amazed at its simplicity. A rubber washer with a hole in the middle.

Why do you want different pressures for Ag and domestic systems?

I would suggest you try one pump with its output split so you are filtering one for domestic and not filtering one for residential. A check valve would allow you to have a bladder tank for the domestic but the check valve would isolate it from back feeding into the Ag system

Amazon

If you have more specific questions which you think I can help with PM me and avoid the inevitable debate of the experts

Dave