Rolled a L4701

[Branch82]

Hello, this is my first post and looking for some wisdom/advice.

Recently, I rented an L4701HST to do some trail work at my house. To spare you the long story, I was an idiot and rolled the thing on its side. Thankfully, I'm ok just a bruised ego. However, despite turning the tractor off nearly immediately, I'm being told by the rental company that it did at least twist/bend a rod (which I had read in other forum posts was a definite possibility). They are trying to figure out how to proceed. Their initial quote from the local kubota dealer (without them taking the actual tractor) was around $12k for an entirely new engine. Suffice it to say that is a bit more than I was expecting.

Looking at values for these tractors at online auctions, I'd guess this is worth about $17k given this tractor has about 1000 hours and 5 years on it. So, I'm thinking that making them whole is not simply a brand-new engine....but I'm looking for overall advice here.

I see v2403 engines reman'd for around $4k and new ones for $7k...so 12k seems high. I mentioned to the rental place that an independent repair shop should be considered (given this is well outside of warranty. However, they said the dealer would need to "reprogram" the machine (which sort of surprised me given the nothing would be different about the bore/stroke or target injector timing. However, it is a "modern" dpf tractor.

I realize you can never truly know the damage and if its "repairable" without a real tear down. However, I don't want to sign up for a "dealer" repair without first knowing if there are better options for a more equitable reman'd engine or perhaps less overall markup.

Are there independent kubota mechanics? What do rebuild services cost? Maybe I should just buy this tractor outright and deal with that myself and sell it? Thoughts? Advice?

 

[BobInOK]

That is what I would do, try to buy it. Make them an offer for the tractor and try to get it for something reasonable. If it was a car you could see what wholesale book is and start there, not sure how to figure out a good offer on that tractor.

Could be it isn't hurt at all or just a matter of pulling the head and pan to replace a bent rod.

 

[BAP]

Did your rental fee include insurance? Did they require you to have proof of insurance? If so then that should cover repairs.

 

[Jim L.]

Sorry that happened, there but for the grace....

First is whose insurance is it on. Did you pay for insurance.

Is it possible that your insurance will cover it. Did you use a credit card that will cover it.

Did your contract say that you are responsible for lost rental while that machine is down.

Are you capable and have the time to repair it yourself, if you bought it as is.

Replacing with a new engine means everyone wins but you. A lot to think over.

 

[Branch82]

Sorry that happened, there but for the grace....

First is whose insurance is it on. Did you pay for insurance.

Is it possible that your insurance will cover it. Did you use a credit card that will cover it.

The credit card company having implicit insurance is a good thought. It was an Amex, so I will call them Monday. They didn't offer insurance...its a small local company.

Buying/repairing myself may technically possible, I have done engine work on a few cars over the years.. My wife probably would kill me. I would also expect reselling to be hard given I am not in an agricultural area.

 

[Daren Todd]

The rental companies offer insurance on the equipment. Did you get insurance on the machine through the rental company?

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[Daren Todd]

I'm curious how the tech knows you bet a rod?

Also, did they pull injectors or glow plugs before starting the machine after it being rolled in case the engine was Hydrolocked?

I

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[Branch82]

I'm curious how the tech knows you bet a rod?

Also, did they pull injectors or glow plugs before starting the machine after it being rolled in case the engine was Hydrolocked?

I

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Kubota told them to pull the oil pan. I can't really say what they did after they took it back to their shop.

 

[sheepfarmer]

Couple of thoughts, Daren is on to a key point. What did you do after you turned the tractor off? Who got it right side up? How long was it in that position? Who tried to start it and when? If there, in fact, is a bent rod, it may not have gotten bent until someone tried to turn the engine over.

Working on or replacing a 4701 engine would be difficult if you don't have access to Kubota proprietary software and expertise on high pressure common rail engines. Lots of expensive parts whose numbers have to be reprogrammed into the ECU. There are a couple of folks on the forum that might have done an engine replace on one of these newer tractors that could give you better advice. Or talk to a different Kubota dealer if you want to buy it.

 

[SidecarFlip]

At my dealer the other day to pick up some parts and he had a newer Kubota in the shop, a B series, not sure which but a pretty big one that the owner laid over on it's side and the engine ran for a while before he could get it shut off. Dennis, the head mechanic showed me the oil sump and all the metal in it and the rod bearings, all ate up from lack of lubrication but no bent rods.

he said Kubota was going to pay a percentage of a new long block.

 

[shootem604]

Ouch, I feel for you on this one. If you shut it off as soon as possible, let it sit once righted, and ran it afterward and then the problem showed, you did your best, but its your fault. If you didn't, and they righted it and tried to start it, its on them for the bent rod. If you can, negotiate a reasonable price and see if you can do a rebuild on it and resell to recoup your loss. Let us know how it plays out. Before I bought a Kubota, I rented them a few times from the local outfit or through Home Depot. I always bought the insurance, because even if the damage was brought on by years of rental abuse, if it breaks when you are on it, it's on you.

 

[Branch82]

Couple of thoughts, Daren is on to a key point. What did you do after you turned the tractor off? Who got it right side up? How long was it in that position? Who tried to start it and when? If there, in fact, is a bent rod, it may not have gotten bent until someone tried to turn the engine over.

Working on or replacing a 4701 engine would be difficult if you don't have access to Kubota proprietary software and expertise on high pressure common rail engines. Lots of expensive parts whose numbers have to be reprogrammed into the ECU. There are a couple of folks on the forum that might have done an engine replace on one of these newer tractors that could give you better advice. Or talk to a different Kubota dealer if you want to buy it.

I am the one who got it right side up (lots of fun with a winch). It was over for about 2 hours. I wasn't in there shop to see what they did when they towed it away.

This advice on the 4701 (v2403?) engine was what I was looking for...I have no doubt I can do the assembly of basics, but if there is specialized tools/software/knowledge, that seems like a pretty significant blocker (for me and the rental shop). Is there such a thing as an independent Kubota mechanic? Who has the ability to repair something like an L4701?

 

[Henro]

I am the one who got it right side up (lots of fun with a winch). It was over for about 2 hours. I wasn't in there shop to see what they did when they towed it away.

Re read Shootem604’s post.

Did you try to start it after righting it OR NOT?

If you did not try starting it someone at the rental place probably did and caused the bent rod.

If you did try to start it, you likely caused the bent rod. Like SidecarFlip said, running it on the side without lubrication might/could cause engine damage. Bent rods are caused by incompressible liquids in the cylinder. Ask a friend of mine about that. He did not realize the air intake on his diesel pickup was low behind the grill. Sucked water crossing a stream and bent connecting rods resulted.

So the first question to answer is who caused the bent rod? Probably whoever was the first to turn the engine over after the tractor was righted.

Did you try to start it, or not?

 

[Ridem32]

You rented it. It’s there tractor and believe me that have insurance on it for sure. I would pay my rental bill and tell them good luck. They cannot make you pay for repairs!! Lucky your ok but if you was hurt they would be making sure you was ok. Get the drift?? Good luck [emoji256] with it all.


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[NewtoOrange]

Not a lawyer here however, I always get the insurance on ANY rental. That being said, that is a pretty pricey piece of equipment. You said they didn't "offer" insurance BUT do they "carry" insurance and on the rental agreement did you specifically "decline" the coverage ? If they truly don't have insurance does the agreement make it clear that RENTER pays for all damage ? Did they come out and give clear instructions on operation or just load it up and say here ya go ? Seems to me at least at this point you are getting a bit of a screw job.

 

[Branch82]

Not a lawyer here however, I always get the insurance on ANY rental. That being said, that is a pretty pricey piece of equipment. You said they didn't "offer" insurance BUT do they "carry" insurance and on the rental agreement did you specifically "decline" the coverage ? If they truly don't have insurance does the agreement make it clear that RENTER pays for all damage ? Did they come out and give clear instructions on operation or just load it up and say here ya go ? Seems to me at least at this point you are getting a bit of a screw job.

Looked over my contract. There was no specific decline of insurance in writing nor was anything discussed verbally. Yes there is verbiage about responsibility of damages. YES, I should have been more diligent...but I am where I am right now.

I am not looking to lawyer up here... especially if we can come to terms on a reasonable repair route. Is such a thing as an independent mechanic that can do a rebuild on this? I am getting the impression that Kubota has a sort of monopoly here on repair of any computerized tractor....

Did check with Amex, they only cover cars and explicitly exclude "off-road vehicles"

 

[whitetiger]

Looked over my contract. There was no specific decline of insurance in writing nor was anything discussed verbally. Yes there is verbiage about responsibility of damages. YES, I should have been more diligent...but I am where I am right now.

I am not looking to lawyer up here... especially if we can come to terms on a reasonable repair route. Is such a thing as an independent mechanic that can do a rebuild on this? I am getting the impression that Kubota has a sort of monopoly here on repair of any computerized tractor....

Did check with Amex, they only cover cars and explicitly exclude "off-road vehicles"

Any competent tech can repair that engine. As long as the injectors are not moved to a different cylinder during reassembly or select electrical components changed there is no need for Diagmaster.

How do they know a connecting rod is bent? Did they do a compression test or remove the cylinder head and measure piston height?

 

[Jim L.]

An independent mech with a Kubota computer diagnostic is possible but unlikely. The machine is several thousand dollars and only recently becoming available.

Yes, you have a wrench job and a computer job. As far as the rental company, it is easier to let a dealer do the job because the work will be guaranteed. If the wrench and computer tasks are performed by separate entities, and something does not work, then the finger-pointing will begin.

One of your options is to let the rental company take care of it and pay the bill.

The other option would be to get a copy of the market value of the tractor (and these are available for cars, RV's, boats, construction equipment) and use this as a starting point for determining fair market value of the machine. Buy the machine, insure it against theft, fire, etc. Do the wrench part yourself. Take it over to the dealer and let them do the computer part. Sell it used through a dealer or broker or auction house.

Maybe there is a third option. But only you know your resources and time.

 

[D2Cat]

I'm with Whitetiger on this. How does anyone know the engine's actual troubles, if there are any? This small rental yard may be clueless about an engine that has been on it's side, and just panicked. Need to get facts, not opinions and ideas!

I can not imagine any company, large or small, renting without an insurance policy covering damages of any amount over deductible. Then the customer would/should pay the deductible.

 

[ehenry]

The question was asked several times in this thread by different people and due to Banch82 not answering the question of if he tried to crank the tractor once he righted it tells me that he must have.