Relays

[Strodad]

I have a no start issue ( no crank) on my 1990 Kubota L2850. I was wondering if anyone could tell me what the relays located by the (please see pic) regulator and the other one on top of the engine (ND 061700-0860) just behind the steering column are for. I know it is a heavy duty relay, but that is all. I also know that I feel no clicking from the relay when the key is turned to start position.

 

[Roadworthy]

The clicking is frequently a lack of capacity in the battery. Instead of jumping to a conclusion you may wish to do a bit of preparation then some troubleshooting. The first step is to charge and load test the battery. Then clean the terminals and the connecting cables. Replace them on the battery and tighten securely. If you can wiggle the connectors they're not secure. Follow the ground lead to the frame. Clean and tighten. Now heat for a few seconds with your glow plugs then try starting. We'll start troubleshooting there.

 

[whitetiger]

The relay in the picture is the Shut Off Timer Relay and the one above the rear of the engine is the Shut Off Solenoid Relay.
Below is attached the wiring schematic for your tractor.
The L2850 has a simple start circuit, Battery to Fuseable Link to Key Switch to Clutch Switch to Starter Solenoid.

 

[Strodad]

Good morning gentlemen,

A few months ago, I started having a problem with the battery draining when the tractor was not in use for more that a day. I started looking for the issue and the only thing I had found was the previous owner had installed the key switch locking ring on the wrong side of the tin, allowing the switch to spin slightly.

The tractor has been sitting for a month while I fabricated a cab for it. I had the battery tested and it is good. All my contacts have been cleaned and secured, with the exception of a wire going to the voltage regulator that I found broken last night.

The latest symptom is that I have all my indicator lights when the key is turned, but no crank or clicking. The battery is still at 13 plus volts.

I have checked continuity from the ground on the battery to several places around the starter and alternator, all are good.

I have checked the clutch safety switch and is good. I can tell you that this tractor is a pain to work on with the way the panel are all inter connected.

The absence of a click makes me wonder about the starter relay or the possibly the key switch its self. I looking at the wiring diagram, you are correct, it is a very straight forward circuit. I am going to go and check the fusible link at the starter just to make sure and fix the broken wire at the regulator. I am fairly certain my glow plug indicator does not work so for now maybe just the meter for testing.

As far as my question about the relays, the shut off solenoid relay is a moot point at the moment since it has always shut down as expected. What is the purpose of the shut off timer relay?

Do you have any suggestions as to how the do some further troubleshooting?

BR

 

[Strodad]

Good morning gentlemen,

A few months ago, I started having a problem with the battery draining when the tractor was not in use for more that a day. I started looking for the issue and the only thing I had found was the previous owner had installed the key switch locking ring on the wrong side of the tin, allowing the switch to spin slightly.

The tractor has been sitting for a month while I fabricated a cab for it. I had the battery tested and it is good. All my contacts have been cleaned and secured, with the exception of a wire going to the voltage regulator that I found broken last night.

The latest symptom is that I have all my indicator lights when the key is turned, but no crank or clicking. The battery is still at 13 plus volts.

I have checked continuity from the ground on the battery to several places around the starter and alternator, all are good.

I have checked the clutch safety switch and is good. I can tell you that this tractor is a pain to work on with the way the panel are all inter connected.

The absence of a click makes me wonder about the starter relay or the possibly the key switch its self. I looking at the wiring diagram, you are correct, it is a very straight forward circuit. I am going to go and check the fusible link at the starter just to make sure and fix the broken wire at the regulator. I am fairly certain my glow plug indicator does not work so for now maybe just the meter for testing.

As far as my question about the relays, the shut off solenoid relay is a moot point at the moment since it has always shut down as expected. What is the purpose of the shut off timer relay?

Do you have any suggestions as to how the do some further troubleshooting?

BR

 

[GeoHorn]

Put a voltmenter on the start solenoid terminal and see if 12+ Volts appears there when the key is turned to “start”. If Yes…then the problem is the probably the starter and/or starter solenoid.

If No…. then see if 12v appears on the key-switch terminal-to-starter when key is turned. If No….then there is your problem….the key switch.

When you say you had the battery “tested”…. I should point out that 13+ volts output of a battery … by itself…is NOT a proper battery test. The battery should be tested under LOAD. WalMart, NAPA, and many other battery retailers will do this test for free. But beware: WalMart tests are not rigorous. My large compactor battery tested 13+ volts but would not turn the engine over sufficiently to start it.. it would only bring the next cylinder up on compression to Top Dead Center.
The terminals and cables were renewed and connections cleaned and tight. Still no rotation.
It was tested at WM and they pronounced it good at 13v. it was tested at NAPA at 13v and condemned. The difference was that NAPA used a tester that also applied a LOAD. It indicated poor capacity. A new battery instantly fixed the problem.

The L2850 schematic Whitetiger kindly posted doesn’t show any relay between the keyswitch and starter-solenoid as already mentioned. For Kubota owners of other models however, there MAY BE.
I ran into this on my M4700 and posted here: https://www.orangetractortalks.com/...no-starter-rotation-thread.51331/#post-463544

I posted the last paragraph because of the ”Subject” or “Topic” postd in this discussion-thread being “Relays”. It would be a much more helpful thread for others if more details were provided when Originating a New Thread/Discussion…. for example, if this thread Subject/Topic instead said “L2850 Start Problem - Relays ???”. Then a hundred people with relays in their tractors that have nothing to do with a start problem wouldn’t visit this thread needlessly (but still could if they wished.)

 

[Strodad]

Put a voltmenter on the start solenoid terminal and see if 12+ Volts appears there when the key is turned to “start”. If Yes…then the problem is the probably the starter and/or starter solenoid.

If No…. then see if 12v appears on the key-switch terminal-to-starter when key is turned. If No….then there is your problem….the key switch.

When you say you had the battery “tested”…. I should point out that 13+ volts output of a battery … by itself…is NOT a proper battery test. The battery should be tested under LOAD. WalMart, NAPA, and many other battery retailers will do this test for free. But beware: WalMart tests are not rigorous. My large compactor battery tested 13+ volts but would not turn the engine over sufficiently to start it.. it would only bring the next cylinder up on compression to Top Dead Center.
The terminals and cables were renewed and connections cleaned and tight. Still no rotation.
It was tested at WM and they pronounced it good at 13v. it was tested at NAPA at 13v and condemned. The difference was that NAPA used a tester that also applied a LOAD. It indicated poor capacity. A new battery instantly fixed the problem.

The L2850 schematic Whitetiger kindly posted doesn’t show any relay between the keyswitch and starter-solenoid as already mentioned. For Kubota owners of other models however, there MAY BE.
I ran into this on my M4700 and posted here: https://www.orangetractortalks.com/...no-starter-rotation-thread.51331/#post-463544

I posted the last paragraph because of the ”Subject” or “Topic” postd in this discussion-thread being “Relays”. It would be a much more helpful thread for others if more details were provided when Originating a New Thread/Discussion…. for example, if this thread Subject/Topic instead said “L2850 Start Problem - Relays ???”. Then a hundred people with relays in their tractors that have nothing to do with a

Put a voltmenter on the start solenoid terminal and see if 12+ Volts appears there when the key is turned to “start”. If Yes…then the problem is the probably the starter and/or starter solenoid.

If No…. then see if 12v appears on the key-switch terminal-to-starter when key is turned. If No….then there is your problem….the key switch.

When you say you had the battery “tested”…. I should point out that 13+ volts output of a battery … by itself…is NOT a proper battery test. The battery should be tested under LOAD. WalMart, NAPA, and many other battery retailers will do this test for free. But beware: WalMart tests are not rigorous. My large compactor battery tested 13+ volts but would not turn the engine over sufficiently to start it.. it would only bring the next cylinder up on compression to Top Dead Center.
The terminals and cables were renewed and connections cleaned and tight. Still no rotation.
It was tested at WM and they pronounced it good at 13v. it was tested at NAPA at 13v and condemned. The difference was that NAPA used a tester that also applied a LOAD. It indicated poor capacity. A new battery instantly fixed the problem.

The L2850 schematic Whitetiger kindly posted doesn’t show any relay between the keyswitch and starter-solenoid as already mentioned. For Kubota owners of other models however, there MAY BE.
I ran into this on my M4700 and posted here: https://www.orangetractortalks.com/...no-starter-rotation-thread.51331/#post-463544

I posted the last paragraph because of the ”Subject” or “Topic” postd in this discussion-thread being “Relays”. It would be a much more helpful thread for others if more details were provided when Originating a New Thread/Discussion…. for example, if this thread Subject/Topic instead said “L2850 Start Problem - Relays ???”. Then a hundred people with relays in their tractors that have nothing to do with a start problem wouldn’t visit this thread needlessly (but still could if they wished.)

I was originally looking at a relay issue.

 

[Strodad]

Put a voltmenter on the start solenoid terminal and see if 12+ Volts appears there when the key is turned to “start”. If Yes…then the problem is the probably the starter and/or starter solenoid.

If No…. then see if 12v appears on the key-switch terminal-to-starter when key is turned. If No….then there is your problem….the key switch.

When you say you had the battery “tested”…. I should point out that 13+ volts output of a battery … by itself…is NOT a proper battery test. The battery should be tested under LOAD. WalMart, NAPA, and many other battery retailers will do this test for free. But beware: WalMart tests are not rigorous. My large compactor battery tested 13+ volts but would not turn the engine over sufficiently to start it.. it would only bring the next cylinder up on compression to Top Dead Center.
The terminals and cables were renewed and connections cleaned and tight. Still no rotation.
It was tested at WM and they pronounced it good at 13v. it was tested at NAPA at 13v and condemned. The difference was that NAPA used a tester that also applied a LOAD. It indicated poor capacity. A new battery instantly fixed the problem.

The L2850 schematic Whitetiger kindly posted doesn’t show any relay between the keyswitch and starter-solenoid as already mentioned. For Kubota owners of other models however, there MAY BE.
I ran into this on my M4700 and posted here: https://www.orangetractortalks.com/...no-starter-rotation-thread.51331/#post-463544

I posted the last paragraph because of the ”Subject” or “Topic” postd in this discussion-thread being “Relays”. It would be a much more helpful thread for others if more details were provided when Originating a New Thread/Discussion…. for example, if this thread Subject/Topic instead said “L2850 Start Problem - Relays ???”. Then a hundred people with relays in their tractors that have nothing to do with a start problem wouldn’t visit this thread needlessly (but still could if they wished.)

Hello all,

I have an issue with no start or crank on my 1990 L2850. The dash lights come on, but no click or crank on the engine. I had the battery tested at Walmart and it tested good. I was reading 13 plus volts with the trickle charger on it while I was looking for the issue.

Now “Roadworthy and Whiteger” both gave me some good insight at to the possibilities I could be faced with when I thought I had a starter relay, but I do not in the L2850. The wire diagram that “Whiteger” gave me is a great help, but I am still looking for input.

The absence of a click makes me wonder about the starter or the possibly the key switch its self. I did test the keyed lead to the starter solenoid and even though the voltage is las than battery I still had voltage. I disconnected the keyed wire to the solenoid and jumped it from the battery and all I got was a spark when there should have engaged the starter. So, I have removed the starter (which itself seemed very loose) to have it tested tomorrow. I will probably pull the battery to have it checked again somewhere else.

 

[GeoHorn]

I was originally looking at a relay issue.

No…you were looking at a “no starter activation” issue. You only ASSUMED you had a relay problem….and lept to a question in Your Mind as you imagined relays might have something to do with it.
I’m not trying ”jump:“ on you. I‘m trying t get others to THINK and be DESCRIPTIVE when they create a new thread.
Hope this helps.

 

[Strodad]

The clicking is frequently a lack of capacity in the battery. Instead of jumping to a conclusion you may wish to do a bit of preparation then some troubleshooting. The first step is to charge and load test the battery. Then clean the terminals and the connecting cables. Replace them on the battery and tighten securely. If you can wiggle the connectors they're not secure. Follow the ground lead to the frame. Clean and tighten. Now heat for a few seconds with your glow plugs then try starting. We'll start troubleshooting there.

Well the tractor runs again, but I am still chasing gremlins. So the battery checked out good when tested under a load but failed when I tried to charge it. So, I bought a factory Kubota battery. The battery indicator light is still on which I find odd. also I pulled out the glow plug indicator and is has continuity through it and power from the key when turned to that position. Odd though that I also have power going to the glow plug indicator sometimes when I start the tractor. Bad switch? Also I had the starter tested, but I think they just put 12 volts to it. There have been several key starts that just click sometimes and sometimes not. I did check the clutch safety switch for function and it was fine. I see no issues with grounds or battery cables and I even cleaned off the starter face to assure good ground.
I have found rat nest and chewed wires, I have cleaned everything out and repaired all the open copper.
DO you have any ideas for the glow plug power and intermittent crank no crank and battery light?

 

[Strodad]

The relay in the picture is the Shut Off Timer Relay and the one above the rear of the engine is the Shut Off Solenoid Relay.
Below is attached the wiring schematic for your tractor.
The L2850 has a simple start circuit, Battery to Fuseable Link to Key Switch to Clutch Switch to Starter Solenoid.

Well the tractor runs again, but I am still chasing gremlins. So the battery checked out good when tested under a load but failed when I tried to charge it. So, I bought a factory Kubota battery. The battery indicator light is still on which I find odd. also I pulled out the glow plug indicator and is has continuity through it and power from the key when turned to that position. Odd though that I also have power going to the glow plug indicator sometimes when I start the tractor. Bad switch? Also I had the starter tested, but I think they just put 12 volts to it. There have been several key starts that just click sometimes and sometimes not. I did check the clutch safety switch for function and it was fine. I see no issues with grounds or battery cables and I even cleaned off the starter face to assure good ground.
I have found rat nest and chewed wires, I have cleaned everything out and repaired all the open copper.
DO you have any ideas for the glow plug power and intermittent crank no crank and battery light?

 

[whitetiger]

"The battery indicator light is still on which I find odd."

Is it the lighting bolt light or a sketch of a battery light?
The "Lighting Bolt" light illuminating means there is little or no charging by the alternator.
The "Battery " light was to tell you that the electrolyte level is low and it will not function with a modern battery.

"I pulled out the glow plug indicator and is has continuity through it and power from the key when turned to that position. Odd though that I also have power going to the glow plug indicator sometimes when I start the tractor."
[/QUOTE]
The Glow Plugs are energized when the Key Switch is in the GLOW position and when in the START position.

"There have been several key starts that just click sometimes and sometimes not"
[/QUOTE]
Due to the age of the unit, the wiring probably has degraded and the connectors corroded enough that it has a high resistance and you are not getting enough amps to operate the starter solenoid.
The simplest cure is to add a Start Relay to the system right at the starter. Kubota offers one that comes with a couple of mounting brackets, but it is well north of $100.00. Deere offers one prewired, or you can just get a relay and wire it yourself for much less.
With a relay installed, it uses the solenoid engage wire to close the relay and the relay sends full system voltage to the solenoid to engage the starter.

 

[Strodad]

The relay in the picture is the Shut Off Timer Relay and the one above the rear of the engine is the Shut Off Solenoid Relay.
Below is attached the wiring schematic for your tractor.
The L2850 has a simple start circuit, Battery to Fuseable Link to Key Switch to Clutch Switch to Starter Solenoid.

Well even after replacing the questionable ground cable and taking it directly to the starter bolt I still have and intermittent click and no start. The battery symbol is still lit after start up even with a brand new battery.
Any more ideas?
BR

 

[whitetiger]

Well even after replacing the questionable ground cable and taking it directly to the starter bolt I still have and intermittent click and no start. The battery symbol is still lit after start up even with a brand new battery.
Any more ideas?
BR

Connect the RED lead from your digital Ohms/Volt meter to the small wire that plugs onto the starter solenoid, connect the Black wire to the ground. Now, turn the key switch to the Start position, see what voltage you have when the starter just clicks.

 

[Strodad]

Connect the RED lead from your digital Ohms/Volt meter to the small wire that plugs onto the starter solenoid, connect the Black wire to the ground. Now, turn the key switch to the Start position, see what voltage you have when the starter just clicks.

Hello again,
I have finally had the time and help to get a reading on the the small wire on the starter solenoid. Wit the battery at 12.58v I was only able to get 9.7v on the small wire. using a steel rod to short the main wire to the short terminal the starter first did nothing and only a spark was noted, the second time I got a spark and binding noise. All this is odd since the date on the starter is just over 2 yrs old. I have the battery ground running directly to one of the starter bolts.
Any ideas, I would think 9.7v would at least engage the starter but maybe not spin it it with power. At the same time even though the starter is so new I should think there is a problem there.
????
BR
Dennis

 

[whitetiger]

Hello again,
I have finally had the time and help to get a reading on the the small wire on the starter solenoid. Wit the battery at 12.58v I was only able to get 9.7v on the small wire. using a steel rod to short the main wire to the short terminal the starter first did nothing and only a spark was noted, the second time I got a spark and binding noise. All this is odd since the date on the starter is just over 2 yrs old. I have the battery ground running directly to one of the starter bolts.
Any ideas, I would think 9.7v would at least engage the starter but maybe not spin it it with power. At the same time even though the starter is so new I should think there is a problem there.
????
BR
Dennis

Did you by any chance jump from the small wire to the positive battery cable post on the starter?

 

[Strodad]

Did you by any chance jump from the small wire to the positive battery cable post on the starter?

Yes, I did. "using a steel rod to short the main terminal wire to the short terminal the starter first did nothing and only a spark was noted, the second time I got a spark and binding noise."
??

 

[Strodad]

Yes, I did. "using a steel rod to short the main terminal wire to the short terminal the starter first did nothing and only a spark was noted, the second time I got a spark and binding noise."
??
DO you think 9.7v is enough to engage the starter or is it more like something is binding in the starter? I still have a notion that the key switch is going, there is alot of play in it, but I am not sure if that is normal for a Kubota.

 

[whitetiger]

Yes, I did. "using a steel rod to short the main terminal wire to the short terminal the starter first did nothing and only a spark was noted, the second time I got a spark and binding noise."
??

Jump from the small exciter wire to the battery cable, not to the threaded post on the solenoid.

 

[Strodad]

Jump from the small exciter wire to the battery cable, not to the threaded post on the solenoid.

I can give that a go tomorrow when it is lite again( and hopefully over the freezing mark). Are you thinking there is a break in the hot lead straight from the battery?