Refreshing a D750, have a question

Tibeka

New member
Mar 28, 2013
14
0
0
PA
I bought a B7100 with only 700 hours on it that didn't run. The PO ran it at high RPMs all the time and I think he overheated it. The tractor is in great shape and came with a loader so I want to get it going. I got it home and checked the compression and it was 220, 110 & 200. Did a leakdown on it and it's blow by.

So I pulled the motor out of the frame and ripped it down. The pistons and rods are out and the plan is to bore it and put in new oversize pistons and rings.

My question is can the block be bored with the crank still in it? It would save a lot of work if I don't need to pull the crank.

I've never rebuilt a motor like this but I have done hundreds of quad motors. How hard can it be? :rolleyes:
 

lsmurphy

Active member

Equipment
B7001
Oct 19, 2012
1,197
5
36
Parrrottsville TN
If you are going on the cheap......

Hone and re-ring.


If you are going over sized pistons and rings........?......why on earth would you not spend the $200 to have the crank polished and new main bearings????
 

Eric McCarthy

New member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
Kubota B6100E
Dec 21, 2009
5,223
7
0
43
Richmond Va
Yeah this thing is a diesle engine disigned for horsepower and torq, not really ment to go down a track at 100mph. I don't see how boreing it out would help.
 

Stumpy

New member

Equipment
L175
Dec 1, 2011
848
3
0
NE Ohio
To answer your question no the crank must be removed or so I was told by the engine shop. Even if you left it in and just rehoned the bore you'd end up with metal particles all over the crank and the bearings and I'd wouldn't take the a chance on having them floating around in the main bearings. It's not like a quad or motorcycle engine where you can remove the jug and deal with it separately.

I do see +0.5mm rings and pistons in the parts catalog so if you want to go that route it's doable. You could also have the engine shop remove the liners and put new ones in like Murphy said and put in new standard size pistons and rings if you can't find the oversize ones.
 

lsmurphy

Active member

Equipment
B7001
Oct 19, 2012
1,197
5
36
Parrrottsville TN
To answer your question no the crank must be removed or so I was told by the engine shop. Even if you left it in and just rehoned the bore you'd end up with metal particles all over the crank and the bearings and I'd wouldn't take the a chance on having them floating around in the main bearings. It's not like a quad or motorcycle engine where you can remove the jug and deal with it separately.

I do see +0.5mm rings and pistons in the parts catalog so if you want to go that route it's doable. You could also have the engine shop remove the liners and put new ones in like Murphy said and put in new standard size pistons and rings if you can't find the oversize ones.


He was talking about going on the cheap so I assumed he intended to use the existing pistons. Rebuild kit is around $2K IIRC.

Rings and gaskets might cost him $200.

Are you going to have the head done?
 

284 International

New member

Equipment
B6000 with FEL, assorted Yanmar machines
Mar 25, 2011
151
0
0
California, USA
While the principles of internal combustion engines are straightforward, I honestly think that having a lot of experience with high-performance gasoline engines almost hinders the ability to work on these compact diesels. They are both extremely precisely built engines, but in fundamentally different ways.

For instance, it is not at all harmful to the tractor engine to run it at wide open throttle for 8 hours straight, without ever backing off the throttle. It's actually easier on the components. Running the engine at wide open throttle will only overheat or damage the machine if there is something drastically wrong with the cooling system.

If the tractor only has 700 hours on it, really the only way it could be worn out is to have been dramatically abused. If the rings have worn enough to drop compression to only 110 PSI, there was an air filter problem. Make sure you determine and correct that issue before you spend money on the engine. Similarly, the tractor should never have overheated, so there is a cooling issue. Spend money to have the radiator rodded out, and get the head and block machined flat and inspected for cracks. The rest will be a waste if that doesn't happen.

This vintage of Japanese compact diesel were designed to be industrial equipment of small size. They aren't heavy-duty consumer equipment or anything like that. People in Japan earned their livings with them in their specialized farming applications; consequently the block of your 7100's engine is equipped with wet sleeves, that can be pressed out and replaced ad infinitum.

Whereas in older dirtbike and quad engines the typical rebuild procedure is to bore the cylinder each time the engine is rebuilt, with these tractors the pistons can be simply re-ringed and run in the sleeves until the sleeves are out of specification, and then the sleeves can be replaced, potentially even re-re-re-using the original pistons. Unless the bores are severely out of round, there's no reason to bore the cylinders. And, if they ARE out of round, you're probably wiser, as others have recommended, to simply replace the sleeves entirely.

How did you check the compression? Remember that normal compression on your 7100 is 398-454 PSI, so a normal compression tester won't work. The minimum allowable according to Kubota is 341 PSI, so I'm suspicious of your numbers if the tractor runs at all. These machines have a compression release that can hang open or be out of adjustment, too. I'm not saying it isn't due to blowby, but if all the cylinders are at 25 to 50 % of their proper compression, it's also possible there is some major piston damage. This is often due to ether being used to coerce the machine to start.

I know the engine is apart now, so it's kind of too late, but with these types of engines, it really is better to spend the money up front and do it properly, because the engine will be good for thousands of hours and decades worth of operation very easily. If you're worried about removing the crankshaft being too much work after you've taken the front half of your tractor apart, you're worried about the wrong things, in my view.

Pull the crank out and check it for damage. See how out of round the bores are. Check the pistons for cracks or wear. Replace with stock specification components as needed. Take the radiator to a real radiator shop, and have them rod it out. Make certain the air filter assembly is in perfect condition. Re-assemble to specification and never worry about it again, just change the oil every so often.

Good luck; take pictures as you do it, and let us know how it comes out!
 

Stumpy

New member

Equipment
L175
Dec 1, 2011
848
3
0
NE Ohio
I apologize in advance but I don't agree with several things you said.

"If the rings have worn enough to drop compression to only 110 PSI, there was an air filter problem."

It's something to check but on mine the air filter was fully intact and even clean. I didn't do a compression test before I opened it up but if I had gotten more than 250-200psi I'd have been very impressed considering the damage to the pistons and the shifted liner. This sounds like classic overheating damage to me.

"Similarly, the tractor should never have overheated, so there is a cooling issue."


Perfectly functional thermosiphon cooling systems can over heat, it's one of the main reasons nearly ever other water cooled engine in the world uses forced water cooling. The thermosiphon effect relies on gravity pointing the right way. When the machine is on a slope the flow is reduced. Climbing a hill means you're using the engine hard which puts additional load on the cooling system. Ever see pictures of radiator stops on long hills back in the 10s and 20s? That was the reason. Combine that with a lack of temperature gauge and owners who fail to clean the radiator and the whistle and it's possible to severely overheat it without knowing it.

"The block of your 7100's engine is equipped with wet sleeves, that can be pressed out and replaced ad infinitum. "

The B7100's motor uses dry sleeves. They're thin wall sleeves that must be bored straight again after being pressed into their parent bores in the block. Unlike dry sleeves they tend to warp when installed. They have enough meat for them to be bored out once, hence the oversize pistons and rings, other than that the sleeves are replaced.

"Whereas in older dirtbike and quad engines the typical rebuild procedure is to bore the cylinder each time the engine is rebuilt, with these tractors the pistons can be simply re-ringed and run in the sleeves until the sleeves are out of specification, and then the sleeves can be replaced, potentially even re-re-re-using the original pistons. Unless the bores are severely out of round, there's no reason to bore the cylinders. And, if they ARE out of round, you're probably wiser, as others have recommended, to simply replace the sleeves entirely. "

While you certainly could hone and rering it if you had an engine with good cylinders but that's not what we have here. It might make sense if the engine only had a few hundred hours on it and was apart again for another reason but if it overheated and compression is that low there is certainly cylinder damage. Even if, in this case, they could be honed out again you'd be running it with partially worn out cylinders and have a shorter engine life because of it. The difference between a new cylinder and a worn out cylinder is only a few thousandths of an inch not to mention out of roundness. The hard part's done. Unless there is a very good reason not to it makes more sense to start with a full spec bore.

"How did you check the compression? Remember that normal compression on your 7100 is 398-454 PSI, so a normal compression tester won't work. The minimum allowable according to Kubota is 341 PSI, so I'm suspicious of your numbers if the tractor runs at all. These machines have a compression release that can hang open or be out of adjustment, too. I'm not saying it isn't due to blowby, but if all the cylinders are at 25 to 50 % of their proper compression, it's also possible there is some major piston damage. This is often due to ether being used to coerce the machine to start."


His test could be off, it's a moot point now, but we've had at least one person with very hard to start but running machine come back with around 200psi of compression.

"Good luck; take pictures as you do it, and let us know how it comes out!"

Now that we agree on!
 

Tibeka

New member
Mar 28, 2013
14
0
0
PA
Ok, guess I need to add some more info.

The compression test was with done with a diesel testing rig. The PO did try replacing the head gasket to get it going so that could have effected the numbers.

This B7100 does NOT have a compression release.

The cylinders are most definitely worn. They're worn to the point that the pistons would not come out easily because there is a slight ridge at the top of the stroke. A re-hone and rings wouldn't cut it.

I know that the block could be re-sleeved (most ATV cylinders can also be re-sleeved and I have done this before) but why would you do that when they make oversized pistons? I'm not re-boring to get more power. This isn't a large enough change to even notice a difference. I'm planning on the re-bore because that's how Kubota designed the motor. When doing a re-sleeve you would need to re-bore anyway once the sleeves are in the true the bore and mate the piston.

No way a re-sleeve is cheaper than a re-bore.

Which brings me to my question. Why did I asked if the block could be bored with the crank in?

The question was asked because I need to have at least one cylinder bored just under spec to see if it cleans up the bore enough or if the re-sleeve is in order. I just thought I could have that done right away and pull the crank while I'm waiting for parts.

I'm not trying to cheap out on the rebuild. I'm just trying to save pulling the crank until I absolutely have to.

I think I'll just take the time to pull it.

The head will be checked for flatness, The valves spec-ed and lapped if OK.

Normally I would do the rod bearings but this motor has fairly low hours and is so clean inside and out. I checked the rods and there is zero movement or wear. I can't see a reason to.
 

Apogee

Member

Equipment
B6100, B7100, B8200, B9200, G4200, L175, L35
Jan 22, 2012
518
0
16
Tacoma, WA
Tibeka,

You're on the right track. Might as well just pull the crank as you will need to anyway. It won't take you long from where you are now in the pull down process, as it pulls out with the bearing carriers as a unit.

If I were you, I'd mic the crank while I was at it just so you know where you're at. Far easier to have the crank ground now if it needs it (I agree likely not) than to have to pull the engine down again later. These engines don't have a ton of oil pressure, so better make sure the bottom end clearances are correct.

Please take lots of pics and keep us posted on your progress so your experience will help others learn also.

Thanks,

Steve
 
Last edited:

Dennis

New member
Jul 28, 2010
79
1
0
Queensland Australia
Very informative thread; thanks to all posters.
My B7100 is up to about 4000 hrs . Still starts and runs fine but I have saved all this useful information for when the time comes.

The way it keeps going ,that might be when I'm in the ground.
 

JosephGozo

Member

Equipment
Kubota B7001 + an ever growing list of attachments (restored / homemade) :(
Nov 25, 2014
83
36
18
Malta
"The block of your 7100's engine is equipped with wet sleeves, that can be pressed out and replaced ad infinitum. "

The B7100's motor uses dry sleeves. They're thin wall sleeves that must be bored straight again after being pressed into their parent bores in the block. Unlike dry sleeves they tend to warp when installed. They have enough meat for them to be bored out once, hence the oversize pistons and rings, other than that the sleeves are replaced.
Hi,
I am contemplating re-sleeving a D750. I read somewhere that they are semifinished. From a workshop manual that I have there is no mention of the need to further machine them once installed. I am confused a bit.


cylinder liners.png
 

North Idaho Wolfman

Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
L3450DT-GST, Woods FEL, B7100 HSD, FEL, 60" SB, 743 Bobcat with V2203, and more
Jun 9, 2013
30,563
6,606
113
Sandpoint, ID
Hi,
I am contemplating re-sleeving a D750. I read somewhere that they are semifinished. From a workshop manual that I have there is no mention of the need to further machine them once installed. I am confused a bit.


View attachment 93048
All sleeves for these are semi finished, the outside bore is right it's the inside that will need to be bored to the finished size after they are installed in the block.
That is not a DYI thing
You need a good machine shop or engine rebuilder to do that.
One option is to get oversized pistons and bore the existing sleeves for those pistons.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user