PTO gen

[skeets]

OK guys I have a ,to me anyway, interesting question. I got a line on a slightly used winco 10kw pto gen set,, the price is right BUT it does not run at 540 rpm at the pto,, it runs at 515rpm ,,,
NOW how do I figure out what engein rpm would equate to the proper pto rpm?
With out the use of a tach on the tumbler bar any ideas ,,,huh,, anybody?

 

[Billdog350]

Your answer is actually simpler than you think. RPM will = HZ. Buy a "Kill-o-watt" or an electrical meter that measures hertz....as well as voltage. When you get your rpm nailed, you will be at exactly 60hz and in the 110-130v range (or 220-240 if dual pole). If your RPM is too high or low, the HZ will be off. If you're putting out 60hz you know you won't fry electronics.

 

[Daren Todd]

This poses a really interesting question. I've had customers jack with the throttles on my light towers causing the voltage regulators to blow. They would crank the rpms higher to try to power more stuff. Tech support said to back the throttle all the way down, and then meter the frequency on the hot wire for the outlets. Increase the throttle till it reaches 60hertz. Voltage should be around 110 to 120 volts. Thats the correct way they said to dial it back in. They said in a pinch if you don't have a meter that can measure frequency then to just increase the throttle till you have between 110 an 120 volts. May not charge your smart phone, but at least the lights and fridge will work.

Would be great if you could find a chart that shows pto speed versus engine speed. Tried looking for one and couldn't find it

 

[dmanlyr]

The real problem with PTO generators is that the tractor is not set up with a constant speed governor, so every time that you add or subtract a electrical load, you have to redial in the hertz / rpm. And as mentioned, hertz out of spec is very hard on electronics, although light bulbs are relatively safe, at least those old school type, CF and LED are a whole different story. Have a new smart refrigerator? Well that won't tolerate out of spec hertz as well as most newer stoves, furnaces and anything else with a circuit board / IC.

What a royal pain if you are trying to power something like a house in a emergency. As the refrigerator kicks on, you have to readjust, as lights are turned on of off, you have to readjust. Every time requires a trip outside and that becomes real inconvenient in a hurry, especially when someone one in the house turns on another load, just as start to open the door to go back inside....

However, they have there place. Out in the field powering, say a constant load pump, all is golden.

David

 

[BAP]

Skeets most of those Winco generators have a guage or meter on them that you can see from the tractor so that you can set the PTO speed to the proper RPM by adjusting your throttle. Yes, if you add a large load, you might need to go out and set the throttle up a little. I've used several PTO generators over the years and currently have one for my house. I think some people worry too much about the potential power fluctuation on a PTO generator. Most engine driven ones will fluctuate too with a large change in load when the governor kicks. Hell, most of the power from the power company fluctuates given the time of day or temperature outside. So there is risk of the power not being the perfect setting from any source. The good thing about a PTO generator, you don't have to worry about maintaining another engine and hoping it will start when you need it.

 

[dmanlyr]

Well my 50kw diesel generator only varies by .5% - and that is with the stove or hot water tank kicking on. Gotta love those electronic controls in this regard. Better than the power company, but not as cheap to produce power.

As to not starting when needed, well it does a monthly self check / startup and cycle. I added a RS232 card to the digital control panel and it reports directly to my computer the status.

It is auto start and auto shutdown, fully sound shielded so you can talk next to when it is operating. Unlike those open gasoline and diesel generators screaming away....

Of course it did cost a bit, but it sure is convent. And since the three most important things in life are water, food and shelter, it made more sense than buying a new cheap car! (16-18k would not buy much now days)

There is a additional consideration to hertz, and that is the shape of the sine wave, if it is not correct, then electronics and some motors will also not work even if the hertz is correct.

David

 

[85Hokie]

OK guys I have a ,to me anyway, interesting question. I got a line on a slightly used winco 10kw pto gen set,, the price is right BUT it does not run at 540 rpm at the pto,, it runs at 515rpm ,,,
NOW how do I figure out what engein rpm would equate to the proper pto rpm?
With out the use of a tach on the tumbler bar any ideas ,,,huh,, anybody?

Skeets, I have a regular ol generator that has a throttle that you adjust, a slide throttle that allow a little more or a little less RPM on the engine,

take a look at this device - I have one and it works very well.

http://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Elec...8&qid=1405989975&sr=8-1&keywords=watt+o+meter

not only does it show hertz, it shows amp draw and volts!! great money spent.

 

[BAP]

Well my 50kw diesel generator only varies by .5% - and that is with the stove or hot water tank kicking on. Gotta love those electronic controls in this regard. Better than the power company, but not as cheap to produce power.

As to not starting when needed, well it does a monthly self check / startup and cycle. I added a RS232 card to the digital control panel and it reports directly to my computer the status.

It is auto start and auto shutdown, fully sound shielded so you can talk next to when it is operating. Unlike those open gasoline and diesel generators screaming away....

Of course it did cost a bit, but it sure is convent. And since the three most important things in life are water, food and shelter, it made more sense than buying a new cheap car! (16-18k would not buy much now days)

There is a additional consideration to hertz, and that is the shape of the sine wave, if it is not correct, then electronics and some motors will also not work even if the hertz is correct.

David

50kw is a little overkill for a house unless you are running the whole neighborhood isn't it? Not too mentioned a whale of a lot more money than what Skeet's can buy the 10kw Winco for.

 

[dmanlyr]

50kw is a little overkill for a house unless you are running the whole neighborhood isn't it? Not too mentioned a whale of a lot more money than what Skeet's can buy the 10kw Winco for.

Not overkill at all, if I operate all of my electric heat, stove and dryer at the same time as well as other energy consuming devices, I max at 31-33kw. By having a large enough generator to run everything at once, well I can just live my life like I had power grid power, no worries about what to use or no.

FYI - my house has a 320 amp service (two 200 amp boxes, which are really 160 amp boxes) so I probably use a bit more than some, although my garage is powered off the house, I do not figure the 50 amp service for the welder in the total consumption because I rarely use that, and would not be in a storm.

And the left over? Well the pump house takes about 12k to operate both pumps, as well as being capacitor start on the main pressure pump which requires quite a bit more at initial start up. I do have to run a 6 gauge power cable over there, I have it on a reel that I can use my tractor to deploy and wind it back up, although it is a manual wind, I am waiting to come up with a spare hydraulic motor to power the reel.

Yes, a whole lot more that Skeets is paying, but the main point is that no matter what you do, a PTO generator is lacking when powering variable load homes. Yes, it will power, but a smaller gas or diesel generator is a much better choice in the long run, even if it needs annual maint.

Skeets has to come to his own decision on this, I just pointed out some good as well as some pitfalls to PTO generators, just like you did with not having to have another piece of equipment to maintain.

Good clean power at the right hertz as well as the proper sine wave goes a long ways to make things work and last.

Just ask those who have suffered a brown out on power line power, lots of equipment gets damaged. I am also protected against that, although a EMP will still take me out!

David

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Wow, too complicated, I just light a candle and chase the wife around!

 

[85Hokie]

Wow, too complicated, I just light a candle and chase the wife around!

And what happens when she blows out the candle?

 

[skeets]

Thanks much for your input guys.
And no a 50kw gen set, while it is a beast, is not much of an over kill, if everything is total electric.
Now up here on the ridge, most all my loads are resistive except for the inrush on an inductive load like the freezer, or fridge starting and the inrush current might jump 700 to 1300%, but that's only maybe 2 cycles and then drops back down to operating current draw, so inrush isn't a real problem.
If power goes out in the summer all AC is off,, they eat up a ton of juice, winter what I need is some lights and blower motor on the wood stove and pump on the hot water gas boiler.
We lived off an old 5kv uint for 13 days 3 years ago after the big snow we had tree limbs took out everything, and being the far end of that feed we come last. Wasn't real fun but we survived and nothing froze.
And a 25 kv for my place would be an over kill,,, but it sure would be nice,,, since I don't run anything that requires a super clean sine wave and a super steady freq, Im not overly worried about and loss in that area. Guess Im still pretty stone age in a lot of ways,,lol

 

[BAP]

You are not so much stone age Skeets as you are realistic. You probably can live without having to use all your electric devices at once. Some people have become so dependent on power that they freak out if the power even blinks for a second, so they run out and buy humongous generators so they can turn on every possible electric run device in there house at the same time. Me, a moderate size generator and being conservative of how much you run at any one time is sufficient and you can live a long time this way. But if you are an "Electric Hog" spend a fortune for your security.

 

[Billdog350]

Skeets, I have a regular ol generator that has a throttle that you adjust, a slide throttle that allow a little more or a little less RPM on the engine,

take a look at this device - I have one and it works very well.

http://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Elec...8&qid=1405989975&sr=8-1&keywords=watt+o+meter

not only does it show hertz, it shows amp draw and volts!! great money spent.

85Hokie, I mentioned that a few posts earlier, those Kill-o-watt's work perfectly for this task. I used mine to ramp up devices on my 900watt Harbor Freight unit during a 1 week power outage. The generator ran continuously for that week, I added fuel while it ran (it was out in the yard surrounded by snow and no risk of burning house if it caught fire). I slowly added load one at a time and monitored hz and voltage with the kill o watt on an outlet strip, so I made sure to not overload the generator or brown out electronics. Was able to get the full size fridge, smaller dorm fridge, blower on the wood stove, and a few cell phone chargers running off that little 700/900 generator. Only burnt about 1gal in 8hrs vs my 10kw Hobart which burned 1.2-1.5 gal per hour.

 

[Stubbyie]

I'm one of those folks that got tired of living off a camping-style genset during grid outages.

With some shopping anybody can pick up a low-time used generator set--for instance, every time a grocery store closes a couple sets hit the market. I've seen really nice sets go for not much more than hauling them off.

My primary is a prime power-rated 45-KW off a 300-ci Ford industrial on liquid propane. And having learned, I've got secondary commercial units (big welding generators) standing by ready to plug in. If the primary goes down (or oil / filter changes during events) I can bring up a secondary in about two minutes flat.

Even if using a tractor (compared to a stationary engine type) be sure to maintain on hand a complete set of expendables, maybe two sets: outside of fuel, filters for everything, belts, plugs, hoses, clamps, tools--whatever you identify as failure points.

The biggest problem whether tractor PTO genset with inherent problem of speed reaction to varying loads or stationary stand-alone is fuel management. If you really need power, how are you going to get fuel on your schedule when everybody else has the same problem you do--no power?

We sat for 17-days in an icestorm with no repeat no power in our entire county for the first five days----17-days without at our way-rural residence. No fuel. Nada. At that time we had to convoy 60-miles to get fuel for fire dept and even that far out and that far from the impacted area we had to stop a fistfight by those in line before we could fuel.

So how are you going to store gasoline or diesel in sufficient quantity? If you prepare incorrectly or guess wrong you've got an expensive pile of scrap metal in your yard doing nothing and you're still cold and dark. I have 1,500-gallons propane valved off from the home tank, standing by ready to flip a valve and push a button.

Natural gas is good except that in flood or tornado / hurricane the system floods and /or vents as structures are removed.

Propane works if not in a flooding situation. Our tanks cannot flood or float due to elevation but can blow away--we've anchored them with chains and oilfield rig anchors. The house may go away but the propane will survive, along with the genset in its block building.

Personally, I think a tractor PTO generator is not only inefficient bordering on impractical for any home use, especially extended outage, but also ties up the one machine you have that may need to go check a neighbor, move trees out of the road, or do something else instead of leaving your family in the dark.

An aside: be sure in any case to use a proper transfer switch. Mine is automatic but I keep it set on manual because we've had homes burn when they were damaged, lost power, genset started automatically, fuses didn't trip or other problems ocurred, and there she went. Bad juju.

 

[dmanlyr]

You are not so much stone age Skeets as you are realistic. You probably can live without having to use all your electric devices at once. Some people have become so dependent on power that they freak out if the power even blinks for a second, so they run out and buy humongous generators so they can turn on every possible electric run device in there house at the same time. Me, a moderate size generator and being conservative of how much you run at any one time is sufficient and you can live a long time this way. But if you are an "Electric Hog" spend a fortune for your security.

Wow BAP, you really have a problem with me, don't you. Well each to their own, but please do not put people down that might have a different outlook than you.

I answered all of your concerns quite nicely I might add, and even acknowledged your quite reasonable concerns about another engine to maintain. But if you want to take this personal, well, I am your man as I back down from nothing.

Electric hog? Hardly. If you want to be a stone age man, then so be it, it is your choice, but do NOT put anyone else down for not choosing that style.

How about admitting that you were totally wrong on a 50kw generator being overkill? You must be one of those who things a 10kw or 12kw generator is a "while house generator", and I see those mistaken ads all the time on Craigslist. Boy are some people unrealistic as to electrical needs.

I will answer each and every one of your questions with a logical answer, but don't blame me if you are not willing or are unable to understand that there might be a different way to do things, perhaps a more thought out logical way to do things.

I will also add this, my electrical needs have nothing to do with my security, that function is performed by the proper weapon on choice. However my electrical needs are directly related to providing one of the three essential needs, did you miss that? Water, food and shelter are the three most important things in life, and the logical choice is to spend what it takes to preserve those.

Want to keep it up?

David

 

[Daren Todd]

Everybody's generators needs are different. I see some folks are pretty passionate about it, and others are going for just big enough to heat the house and keep the fridge going . It's just based on what our needs are.
That being said and I mean no disrespect a 50 kW generator is fr$&()n huge I would assume that it's powering a large home or small farm. That generator would power my house and two of the neighbors with all our light's, ac units, and water heaters running most people I know that have a hole home generator have somewhere between an 8kw to 15kw generator and are quite comfy. And a lot of them have extension cords running to the neighbors houses as well.
I'm sure the other gentlemen didn't mean any disrespect. I don't mean any disrespect either


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BAP]

I am not disrespecting you. If you want and feel you need a huge generator, go for it. However, don't put down a PTO generator and somebody that can get by with it. Some people don't mind roughin it a little with reduced power.

 

[dmanlyr]

Fair enough, I was not trying to put down a PTO generator, just pointing out a limitation of it, just like buying a big generator has a limitation as in price...

Everything in life has drawbacks and tradeoffs, I meant nothing against a PTO generator, in fact I pointed out one area that it did shine, as in powering a fixed load, sorry that did not come across loudly enough and was lost in some of what I posted on the drawback of a PTO generator.

David

 

[85Hokie]

85Hokie, I mentioned that a few posts earlier, those Kill-o-watt's work perfectly for this task. I used mine to ramp up devices on my 900watt Harbor Freight unit during a 1 week power outage. The generator ran continuously for that week, I added fuel while it ran (it was out in the yard surrounded by snow and no risk of burning house if it caught fire). I slowly added load one at a time and monitored hz and voltage with the kill o watt on an outlet strip, so I made sure to not overload the generator or brown out electronics. Was able to get the full size fridge, smaller dorm fridge, blower on the wood stove, and a few cell phone chargers running off that little 700/900 generator. Only burnt about 1gal in 8hrs vs my 10kw Hobart which burned 1.2-1.5 gal per hour.

WOW - that is veeery impressive at that rate, 1 gal per hour, I had an old 8hp briggs that ran two fridges, some fans and other light stuff and that sucker went through 5 gallons in a 8 hour period. ( this was a 5000 w genny)