Perspective on Covid

[SidecarFlip]

It was deliberate on China's part, IMO.

Strictly an IMO in my view.

 

[torch]

AND, is that your "objective analysis"?

What, hypothesizing that education would make mask use more effective, or recognizing that there are multiple hypotheses? The first is subjective, the second is objective.

Objectivity requires that one consider all alternatives. An observation that some people don't wear the mask correctly is an objective fact. The conclusion that masks are therefore ineffective is one possible hypothesis. Conflating the two is, at best, a subjective opinion.

Since you asked, here is my analysis. First, some actual facts:
1. masks are relatively cheap, compared to the costs of lock-downs.
2. masks are a proven effective method of reducing the transmission of pathogens in droplets to other people and surfaces, when properly worn.
3. Some people don't wear masks properly.
4. Any surgeon who failed to properly mask up would be fired. And probably sued. And lose his license.
5. Masks may increase CO2 re-circulation under certain circumstances such as heavy exercise.
6. Despite initial beliefs that Covid-19 is exclusively spread by droplets, there is evidence that aerosolization is possible under circumstances such as oxygen therapy.

(Note: by "masks" I do not include N-95 types, which are more properly classed as "respirators")

Now some hypothesis based on the above:
1. Mandatory mask use could be better for the economy than mandatory lock downs
2. Masks may help reduce the spread of Covid-19 by containing infectious droplets.
3. Education of proper mask wearing techniques could improve effectiveness
4. Enforcement of mask wearing could improve compliance.
5. A healthy adult can quite safely function with an SpO2 of 88%. Those with pulmonary conditions such as COPD are particularly vulnerable to Covid-19 and should be taking measures to protect themselves (isolation, N-95s, etc.) Those measures would make mask use irrelevant in those cases.
6. Masks are not an effective measure of preventing spread in hospital and nursing home settings were O2 therapy is commonly administered to patients.

And now my subjective opinion:
Universal mask use in public spaces is a cheap and effective way of opening things back up. We've been wearing masks in the firehalls and in the rigs (coupled with twice-daily decon of touch surfaces and frequent handwashing) since March and have yet to see a single case of firefighter to firefighter transmission.

Yes, they should be worn properly, but hey: it's not rocket science either. Cover both mouth and nose. Change it when soiled. Decon your hands after adjusting it.

CO2 recirculation is not necessarily a bad thing -- many firefighters and probably other athletes as well actually train wearing restrictive masks specifically to develop more efficient O2 use. Think of it as high-altitude training.

Those that think this is some sort of government conspiracy to bend the population to their will are missing the point -- just think of all the NSA scientists who are shitting themselves because their facial recognition software that was monitoring your movements won't work any more. Embrace the mask! You are sticking it to the man! In fact, I think you should line your mask with tin foil!

 

[NHSleddog]

What, hypothesizing that education would make mask use more effective, or recognizing that there are multiple hypotheses? The first is subjective, the second is objective.

Objectivity requires that one consider all alternatives. An observation that some people don't wear the mask correctly is an objective fact. The conclusion that masks are therefore ineffective is one possible hypothesis. Conflating the two is, at best, a subjective opinion.

Since you asked, here is my analysis. First, some actual facts:
1. masks are relatively cheap, compared to the costs of lock-downs.
2. masks are a proven effective method of reducing the transmission of pathogens in droplets to other people and surfaces, when properly worn.
3. Some people don't wear masks properly.
4. Any surgeon who failed to properly mask up would be fired. And probably sued. And lose his license.
5. Masks may increase CO2 re-circulation under certain circumstances such as heavy exercise.
6. Despite initial beliefs that Covid-19 is exclusively spread by droplets, there is evidence that aerosolization is possible under circumstances such as oxygen therapy.

(Note: by "masks" I do not include N-95 types, which are more properly classed as "respirators")

Now some hypothesis based on the above:
1. Mandatory mask use could be better for the economy than mandatory lock downs
2. Masks may help reduce the spread of Covid-19 by containing infectious droplets.
3. Education of proper mask wearing techniques could improve effectiveness
4. Enforcement of mask wearing could improve compliance.
5. A healthy adult can quite safely function with an SpO2 of 88%. Those with pulmonary conditions such as COPD are particularly vulnerable to Covid-19 and should be taking measures to protect themselves (isolation, N-95s, etc.) Those measures would make mask use irrelevant in those cases.
6. Masks are not an effective measure of preventing spread in hospital and nursing home settings were O2 therapy is commonly administered to patients.

And now my subjective opinion:
Universal mask use in public spaces is a cheap and effective way of opening things back up. We've been wearing masks in the firehalls and in the rigs (coupled with twice-daily decon of touch surfaces and frequent handwashing) since March and have yet to see a single case of firefighter to firefighter transmission.

Yes, they should be worn properly, but hey: it's not rocket science either. Cover both mouth and nose. Change it when soiled. Decon your hands after adjusting it.

CO2 recirculation is not necessarily a bad thing -- many firefighters and probably other athletes as well actually train wearing restrictive masks specifically to develop more efficient O2 use. Think of it as high-altitude training.

Those that think this is some sort of government conspiracy to bend the population to their will are missing the point -- just think of all the NSA scientists who are shitting themselves because their facial recognition software that was monitoring your movements won't work any more. Embrace the mask! You are sticking it to the man! In fact, I think you should line your mask with tin foil!

And partial hiding and cloth mask use will ensure this virus stays with us for a long long time.

I just used math for the exercise.

And BTW - My wife has been working with doctors and surgeons for over 20 years. She says it is the running joke that the doctors don't know how to use PPE. The walk around with no masks, masks on upside down etc. NONE of them have ever been fired.

 

[torch]

Running jokes are neither fact nor hypothesis.

 

[sheepfarmer]

And partial hiding and cloth mask use will ensure this virus stays with us for a long long time.

I just used math for the exercise.

And BTW - My wife has been working with doctors and surgeons for over 20 years. She says it is the running joke that the doctors don't know how to use PPE. The walk around with no masks, masks on upside down etc. NONE of them have ever been fired.

Let's see your math...show your work as they used to say in school.

Ps the virus or some form of it will be around forever. Unless all life on the planet is extinguished, there is a reservoir in the wildlife as well as in the human population. No one thinks it will go away magically, er well except for potus.

 

[NHSleddog]

Let's see your math...show your work as they used to say in school.

Ps the virus or some form of it will be around forever. Unless all life on the planet is extinguished, there is a reservoir in the wildlife as well as in the human population. No one thinks it will go away magically, er well except for potus.

It doesn't require magic, it just needs to run it's coarse LIKE EVER OTHER VIRUS IN HISTORY.
But to your question, can you answer a question I have asked you multiple times first?

Will states lowering the "fever" temp below 100.4 (the first time they have ever done it) INCREASE the number of fake covid admissions in hospitals or REDUCE the number of fake covid numbers? I already know the actual answer, I have first hand experience, I just want to see where your "math" is.

If you are feeling adventurous, I have a follow up question. How much FEAR should we place on the additional fake numbers?

This is ANOTHER example of "if their case is so good, they would not need to make stuff up to scare people.

 

[NHSleddog]

Running jokes are neither fact nor hypothesis.

Totally wrong.

The doctor walking by without any PPE on IS the FACT that makes it the running joke. Do you think all the nurses are making it up? Do you seriously think they fire doctors for bad PPE use? Do you have any experience with hospitals at all? I have lived with a nurse for over 20 years so I get get quite a bit of it.

 

[sparky45]

Running jokes are neither fact nor hypothesis.

I worked in Operating Rooms for over 40 years, and you sir don't know Shit* about masks and the wearing of therein.
Your "facts" # 1~6, aren't. You can't even begin to "prove" what you say.
CLOTH MASKS ARE CESSPOOLS.

 

[torch]

Totally wrong.

The doctor walking by without any PPE on IS the FACT that makes it the running joke. Do you think all the nurses are making it up? Do you seriously think they fire doctors for bad PPE use? Do you have any experience with hospitals at all? I have lived with a nurse for over 20 years so I get get quite a bit of it.

Well I have considerable experience with a few Canadian hospitals. Even sat on the Board of Directors for one of them. Up here, a surgeon entering an operating room without a mask would be fired and probably lose his license. Heck, even a nurse changing a dressing is required to wear a mask.

I find it odd that the litigious land of lawyers would have lower hospital standards, but I suppose it's possible if you say so.

 

[sparky45]

Here's a little study for your consumption, if you have the comprehension skills to understand.


A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers
C Raina MacIntyre,1 Holly Seale,1 Tham Chi Dung,2 Nguyen Tran Hien,2 Phan Thi Nga,2 Abrar Ahmad Chughtai,1 Bayzidur Rahman,1 Dominic E Dwyer,3 and Quanyi Wang4
Author information Article notes Copyright and License information Disclaimer
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

Abstract
Objective
The aim of this study was to compare the efficacy of cloth masks to medical masks in hospital healthcare workers (HCWs). The null hypothesis is that there is no difference between medical masks and cloth masks.
Setting
14 secondary-level/tertiary-level hospitals in Hanoi, Vietnam.
Participants
1607 hospital HCWs aged ≥18 years working full-time in selected high-risk wards.
Intervention
Hospital wards were randomised to: medical masks, cloth masks or a control group (usual practice, which included mask wearing). Participants used the mask on every shift for 4 consecutive weeks.
Main outcome measure
Clinical respiratory illness (CRI), influenza-like illness (ILI) and laboratory-confirmed respiratory virus infection.
Results
The rates of all infection outcomes were highest in the cloth mask arm, with the rate of ILI statistically significantly higher in the cloth mask arm (relative risk (RR)=13.00, 95% CI 1.69 to 100.07) compared with the medical mask arm. Cloth masks also had significantly higher rates of ILI compared with the control arm. An analysis by mask use showed ILI (RR=6.64, 95% CI 1.45 to 28.65) and laboratory-confirmed virus (RR=1.72, 95% CI 1.01 to 2.94) were significantly higher in the cloth masks group compared with the medical masks group. Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%.
Conclusions
This study is the first RCT of cloth masks, and the results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally. However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I worked in Operating Rooms for over 40 years, and you sir don't know Shit* about masks and the wearing of therein.
Your "facts" # 1~6, aren't. You can't even begin to "prove" what you say.
CLOTH MASKS ARE CESSPOOLS.

You sir need to lighten up. You are about to get put on ignore. No one wants to read that kind of drivel.

 

[torch]

Your "facts" # 1~6, aren't. You can't even begin to "prove" what you say.
CLOTH MASKS ARE CESSPOOLS.

Can't prove what? That masks are cheaper than shutdowns? That some people don't wear them properly? That new evidence suggests aerosol transmission of Covid-19 is possible?

Yes, masks can become cesspools. They are trapping pathogens. That is what they are intended to do. It's like saying toilets don't work because they dump into sewers.

Hence my advice to change them when soiled and to decon your hands after adjusting one.

 

[sparky45]

https://media3.giphy.com/media/jss5Yril32gAQyRjKQ/giphy.gif

Here's how effective a mask is in the general population.

 

[torch]

Here's a little study for your consumption, if you have the comprehension skills to understand.

Yes I have the comprehension to understand. Cloth masks won't protect the wearer. Nobody ever said they did, that is not their intent.

The intent is to protect others from pathogens emitted by the wearer.

If you need to protect yourself, then you need a respirator (eg: N-95), not a mask.

 

[sparky45]

You sir need to lighten up. You are about to get put on ignore. No one wants to read that kind of drivel.

If you'd place me on ignore, it'd break my heart.

 

[sparky45]

Yes I have the comprehension to understand. Cloth masks won't protect the wearer. Nobody ever said they did, that is not their intent.

The intent is to protect others from pathogens emitted by the wearer.

If you need to protect yourself, then you need a respirator (eg: N-95), not a mask.

Tell me this Mr. Wizard; what's the size of Covid 19 Virus? What's the level of filtration of a cloth mask?

 

[torch]

https://media3.giphy.com/media/jss5Yril32gAQyRjKQ/giphy.gif

Here's how effective a mask is in the general population.

Note how none of the aerosolized vapour projected away from the person and landed on the camera lens.

 

[SidecarFlip]

If you'd place me on ignore, it'd break my heart.

Consider it done then............. You get to join the other 3 stooges as the 4th stooge.....

 

[torch]

Tell me this Mr. Wizard; what's the size of Covid 19 Virus? What's the level of filtration of a cloth mask?

Irrelevant. The objective is not to trap the virii, the objective is to restrict propulsion of the droplets containing the virii.

 

[NHSleddog]

Irrelevant. The objective is not to trap the virii, the objective is to restrict propulsion of the droplets containing the virii.

Which WILL prolong its existence.