No hydraulics after using PTO

[Shane H]

Hi All
I bought a B7100 a month back and its been a bit of a learning curve with being my first tractor.
The last owner really neglected maintenance but the price was right so I took the plunge.
So far I ve had the two front hydraulic rams for the loader reconditioned. Installed them
and everything was running fine. The fluid is at the correct level but after using the PTO now
I don't have any hydraulics till the tractor has sat overnight. The hydraulic's work the next day
but seem slower. Soon as I use the PTO no hydraulic's.
Any ideas on what to check or is this a pump rebuild?
THanks in advance

 

[Dave_eng]

More info is needed. Exact model of B7100...... HST or gear.
Does the loader have a model number?

In rebuilding the cylinders, hoses had to be disconnected. Besides the hoses connected to the cylinder were any other hoses replaced?

How is the loader .powered hydraulically:
1. from a pump driven from the front of the engine crankshaft.
2. From a hydraulic connection at the rear of the tractor where you more a selector to power either the 3 pt hitch or the loader.
3. From a hydraulic block near the foot board of the tractor on the right side

Regardless he suction strainer needs to be cleaned. it will look like a bolt on the side of the transmission.

This is what the suction screen looks like.

I have attached the WSM page dealing with the hydraulic block because it is important for us to know if it is used to power your loader.

Your loader valve will have letters cast into the valve body. You need to located the one marked P or IN and determine where the other end of the hose is connected.

Dave

 

[Shane H]

Hi Dave
The loader is powered from the hydraulic block which has the handle for selecting
fluid flow.
I should have mentioned that prior to having the loader cylinders reconditioned
I had never used the pto so the problem very possibly existed before hand.
No hoses were replaced and the cylinders were reconditioned at a hydraulic
workshop. The hose fittings were cleaned before removal and sealed after
disassembly.
The gearbox is manual not HST.
There are numerous parts of the tractor which require maintenance. Things broke
so were tied up with wire by previous owner.
I'm sure cleaning the filter you show would have never been factored in. The
bolt with the filter is in a difficult postion and it looks to me like I will have
to drop the loader frame to get it out.
I will try to get it out today and change the fluid at the same time.
My gut feeling on this is that I've used the PTO and dislodged debris of some
sort into the fluid which has been caught in the filter.
Hopefully I can post pictures to the forum soon.

Thanks Again.

 

[Russell King]

Post three more times (5 total required) before you can post attachments

 

[Dave_eng]

Hi Dave
The loader is powered from the hydraulic block which has the handle for selecting
fluid flow.
I should have mentioned that prior to having the loader cylinders reconditioned
I had never used the pto so the problem very possibly existed before hand.
No hoses were replaced and the cylinders were reconditioned at a hydraulic
workshop. The hose fittings were cleaned before removal and sealed after
disassembly.
The gearbox is manual not HST.
There are numerous parts of the tractor which require maintenance. Things broke
so were tied up with wire by previous owner.
I'm sure cleaning the filter you show would have never been factored in. The
bolt with the filter is in a difficult postion and it looks to me like I will have
to drop the loader frame to get it out.
I will try to get it out today and change the fluid at the same time.
My gut feeling on this is that I've used the PTO and dislodged debris of some
sort into the fluid which has been caught in the filter.
Hopefully I can post pictures to the forum soon.

Thanks Again.

You need to be clearer on some components and their operating condition.

The shaft which rotates to power implements at the rear of the tractor is called the pto for "Power Take Off."

The arms and linkages which support and lift rear mounted implements are called the Three Point Hitch. 3 point because it attached to implements in 3 locations to make the implement stable.

The 3 pt hitch uses hydraulic power to lift the lift arm linkages.

Please try and describe what is happening armed with clearer terminology.

I have an Operators Manual for your model of B7100.

I will send you a message about how I can send it to you.

Dave

 

[Shane H]

You need to be clearer on some components and their operating condition.

The shaft which rotates to power implements at the rear of the tractor is called the pto for "Power Take Off."

The arms and linkages which support and lift rear mounted implements are called the Three Point Hitch. 3 point because it attached to implements in 3 locations to make the implement stable.

The 3 pt hitch uses hydraulic power to lift the lift arm linkages.

Please try and describe what is happening armed with clearer terminology.

I have an Operators Manual for your model of B7100.

View attachment 64890

I will send you a message about how I can send it to you.

Dave

Today I dropped the loader frame which was bolted to the rear diff assembly.
This made it possible to remove the filter from the transmission.
Filter picture below.

The loader frame is cracked so going to take it into town for repairs.
Also noticed some sort of nasty setup on the rear axle with how the
frame for mounting the wheel is attached. Looks like I have rear seal
leak as well.

 

[torch]

The loader is powered from the hydraulic block which has the handle for selecting
fluid flow.

Wait, what? Are you talking about the valve below the front of the seat? That's not the hydraulic block. That's the directional control valve.

The directional control valve diverts hydraulic fluid to an accessory instead of to the 3ph lift cylinder IF the hydraulic control lever (beside the seat, normally controls the 3ph) is ALSO moved to the "Up" position. It will not supply fluid if the hydraulic control lever is in the neutral or down positions.

It is normally used for single-acting cylinders, but could be used for a FEL (without need of a Power Beyond port) if the return line from the FEL is piped back into the transmission through the fill hole. If so, then the FEL will be supplied by a hose to that valve. Note that in this configuration, the FEL and the 3ph are mutually exclusive -- the 3ph cannot be raised or lowered when the directional control valve is set to supply the FEL and vice-versa. It may be difficult to switch the DCV if there is weight on the currently selected function.

The hydraulic block is located on the right hand side of the engine, just forward of the fuel filter. While some models have a bypass valve in the block, the B7100 does not. The cover must be changed to supply a FEL. Supplying a FEL through the hydraulic block requires controls with the Power Beyond function and a third hose. More complicated, but allows seamless alternate operation of the FEL and 3ph.

 

[torch]

Yuck. Definitely time to clean that filter.

The rear wheel hub is a poor design. Supposed to make it easy to adjust the wheel width, but tends to be a very sloppy connection. There are a number of fixes to tighten it up and also an updated hub available.

 

[Shane H]

Wait, what? Are you talking about the valve below the front of the seat? That's not the hydraulic block. That's the directional control valve.

The directional control valve diverts hydraulic fluid to an accessory instead of to the 3ph lift cylinder IF the hydraulic control lever (beside the seat, normally controls the 3ph) is ALSO moved to the "Up" position. It will not supply fluid if the hydraulic control lever is in the neutral or down positions.

It is normally used for single-acting cylinders, but could be used for a FEL (without need of a Power Beyond port) if the return line from the FEL is piped back into the transmission through the fill hole. If so, then the FEL will be supplied by a hose to that valve. Note that in this configuration, the FEL and the 3ph are mutually exclusive -- the 3ph cannot be raised or lowered when the directional control valve is set to supply the FEL and vice-versa. It may be difficult to switch the DCV if there is weight on the currently selected function.

The hydraulic block is located on the right hand side of the engine, just forward of the fuel filter. While some models have a bypass valve in the block, the B7100 does not. The cover must be changed to supply a FEL. Supplying a FEL through the hydraulic block requires controls with the Power Beyond function and a third hose. More complicated, but allows seamless alternate operation of the FEL and 3ph.

Ok like Dave said my knowledge of tractor part terminology is a little unclear so
it is why I have started to post pictures.
Here is one of where the hoses go.
Thanks for the help.

 

[Shane H]

Yuck. Definitely time to clean that filter.

The rear wheel hub is a poor design. Supposed to make it easy to adjust the wheel width, but tends to be a very sloppy connection. There are a number of fixes to tighten it up and also an updated hub available.

The rear wheel hub is loose and not sure if you can tell from the photo but there are bolts with a whole
bunch of washers on them screwed into the assembly. It is still loose on the axle.
Yes I need to get some new seals this week for the rear axle.

 

[torch]

Yeah, that looks like it is supplied from the directional control valve. Is that the return line on the other side of the gear shift? It appears to be returning to the fill port. There should be a tee fitting with a cap for topping off the fluid. And I assume there is a separate joystick or pair of control levers for the FEL functions?

It is safest and most stable to have some weight hanging off the 3ph as a counter-balance when using the FEL. An implement, a concrete counterweight, a box of rocks -- whatever you have that weighs a few hundred pounds. Hard to do with that hydraulic configuration, but you can lift it with the 3ph, chain it up (there should be a slot above the 3ph to accept a chain link) and settle the weight on the chain before switching the valve to FEL use.

I would definitely clean that filter first and change the hydraulic fluid. And remember that the lever used to lift the 3ph must be in the Up position after changing the directional control valve to use the FEL if it has separate FEL controls.

(Some early FEL designs on domestic tractors had a simple single-direction lift and gravity dump with a cable operated release. The bucket would be re-latched in the horizontal position by lowering the FEL to the ground. Primitive, but it worked. That concept would just use the directional valve itself to raise and lower the FEL).

 

[torch]

Regarding your hubs: read through this thread:

B7200 rear wheel question

I just purchased a B7200D and I noticed both rear wheels are loose on the axles. I can grab the top of the tire from the side and "rock" it back and forth quite a bit on the end of the axle. Is this normal or do I need to fix it? By the way new to the site and new to Kubotas.

www.orangetractortalks.com

I followed lil foot's advise and clearanced the existing hubs on mine.

 

[Shane H]

Regarding your hubs: read through this thread:

B7200 rear wheel question

I just purchased a B7200D and I noticed both rear wheels are loose on the axles. I can grab the top of the tire from the side and "rock" it back and forth quite a bit on the end of the axle. Is this normal or do I need to fix it? By the way new to the site and new to Kubotas.

www.orangetractortalks.com

I followed lil foot's advise and clearanced the existing hubs on mine.

Did you clearance the hubs with a die grinder bit?
After reading the thread you gave the link to I got the impression
removing the springs from the tightening bolt was sufficient to
allow the hub to be tightened. The bolts which go through the axle
on mine are bent obviously been wobbling around for a quite a while.

Thanks to all who have supplied information on the thread there is
a lot to take in for a newbie to the tractor world. Should have the
tractor up and running again end of this week. Waiting on a new
axle seal and I ll be ready to add fluid and try the hydraulics after
cleaning that cruddy filter.

 

[torch]

I used a hacksaw. Remove blade, insert in hub, assemble to frame. With the bolt tightened down to remove the gap, I angled the saw to one side slightly and followed the groove. Repeat on the opposite groove. It doesn't require much.

I think I removed the springs too. I don't remember for sure now.

 

[Shane H]

Yeah, that looks like it is supplied from the directional control valve. Is that the return line on the other side of the gear shift? It appears to be returning to the fill port. There should be a tee fitting with a cap for topping off the fluid. And I assume there is a separate joystick or pair of control levers for the FEL functions?

It is safest and most stable to have some weight hanging off the 3ph as a counter-balance when using the FEL. An implement, a concrete counterweight, a box of rocks -- whatever you have that weighs a few hundred pounds. Hard to do with that hydraulic configuration, but you can lift it with the 3ph, chain it up (there should be a slot above the 3ph to accept a chain link) and settle the weight on the chain before switching the valve to FEL use.

I would definitely clean that filter first and change the hydraulic fluid. And remember that the lever used to lift the 3ph must be in the Up position after changing the directional control valve to use the FEL if it has separate FEL controls.

(Some early FEL designs on domestic tractors had a simple single-direction lift and gravity dump with a cable operated release. The bucket would be re-latched in the horizontal position by lowering the FEL to the ground. Primitive, but it worked. That concept would just use the directional valve itself to raise and lower the FEL).

I believe it is the return line on the other side of the gearshift where the filler normally is. You say about a T fitting being there well who ever set it up neglected to install one. I have been removing the fitting to fill the transmission. I will get a T and install on my next trip to the hydraulic shop. Yes I have separate controls for the FEL.

You also mention the counterweight for using the FEL. I have a slasher on the back which I ve been holding about half way up. Should I be chaining it in position and releasing the pressure on the 3Pt when using the FEL?

Other issues i have are stuck in 4wd looks like the lever is seized. Also the PO used the decompressor to stop the engine. I can see from the users manual the key should stop it. I ll be getting around to these shortly.

Thanks

 

[torch]

I would chain the implement and take the pressure off for two reasons:
1. Easier to turn the valve with no pressure on it.
2. Once you turn the valve, there is no relief valve protecting the 3ph cylinder. The weight bouncing around back there could cause momentary pressure spikes that damage the piston seal.

Of course, if you do convert things to run off the hydraulic block instead, you won't have to worry about the diverter valve or 3ph any more but other than convenience, I don't really see any benefit from running off the hydraulic block unless you are using the FEL and implement together -- eg: you have a blade on the back and removing snow or spreading dirt with the two in combination.

Even piping the supply through the hydraulic block does not permit simultaneous use of FEL and 3ph lift. The Power Beyond port only supplies fluid to the 3ph when the FEL controls are in neutral. Not a big deal for me -- both controls are on my right and I can't have my hand on both levers simultaneously anyway. But one odd side-effect is that if the FEL lever is in the "float" position, attempting to raise the 3ph causes it to fall instead, as the FEL is taking all the fluid even in "float". The first time that happened to me it caused some head scratching for a few minutes. <lol>

Turning the key off won't shut down the engine, just the hour meter and the headlights. Pull the throttle all the way back to kill the engine. If things are adjusted properly anyway -- I have to wonder why he was using the decomp to shut down.

You are on your own with the 4wd lever. I'd start by soaking the pivot with penetrating oil a few times, just in case the problem is that simple. Also, make sure there is no load on the system when you attempt to shift it. The surest way to ensure nothing could possibly be binding is to raise the front wheels off the ground slightly with the bucket, but normally just stopping on a level surface is sufficient. Especially if that surface is dirt or gravel as opposed to pavement or concrete.

 

[torch]

Here is my return (I have the HST version, so no shift lever in the picture):

Of course, your filler cap is probably long gone, so you will need a pipe plug or similar to cover the hole when not in use.

 

[Shane H]

I clearanced the wheel hub today.
Looks like it will definitely fit tight using
the existing clamping bolt.
Still waiting on the axle seal as had to buy
genuine Kubota.

I used a small die grinder bit just to nick the lip off.

 

[torch]

That'll work.

 

[random]

You guys making me sad. Haven't had a chance to do ANYTHING with mine for a couple weeks...