New Tractors and Biodiesel

[lilguy]

Took my 31 year old l2250 in for a Rops install before selling. Talked to service tech about what problems he sees with new models, Im shopping new B2650.
He spoke of the tier4 issues on the larger tractors and the front axle seal leaks
that I have on my old tractor and they still have issues on new rigs. The one issues he brought up was for me to try and stay away from biodiesel. He's dealing long term running problems. Especially after long storage.
What is anyones personal take on Biodiesel. My rigs go into storage in November and come out in April. Never had an issue with my two mid 1980 Kubota's

 

[skeets]

Re: VNew Tractors and Biodiesel

Only thing I know is the 80's motors are a far cry from the new ones. And as far as I know the Bio Diesel doesn't have the proper chem make up for the new motors to meet EPA regs,, Will they run Im sure they will how long will the new motos run on it,, I cant say,I sure wouldnt try it ,, just MHO

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I personally would avoid any bio in newer tractors, injectors and injection components are too fine for unrefined fuel.

 

[Wild and Free]

If its coming from a retail pump i assure you it is just as "Refined" as any other fuel and meets all of EPA's regulations.
Do not mix up home brewed bio fuels with commercially available fuels.
Issue with Bio is it like ethanol is very susceptible to moisture related issues and then harbors microbes that cause issues, plus anything contrived from organic sources can and do break down over time versus oil based fuels.
There are Biofuel specific additives to address long term storage and moisture and biolgical contamination issues but personally i would not use or store any diesel over the winter using any bio fuels. In the summer absolutely use it with no fear of issues but not in the winter, use it up and store it with a full tank of normal fuel.

 

[Daren Todd]

Bio diesel tends to wick in and attract moisture. So if your equipment goes a long time sitting, you may start it up and get a bunch of water through the fuel system.

Some manufacturers will void warranty if someone runs bio diesel through a tier 4 engine. Not sure about kubota's warranty requirements.

Not sure in your area. But here, I've been noticing more and more stations and bulk suppliers are only offering a diesel/ bio diesel mix similar to the 10 percent ethanol in gasoline.

I'm still waiting for clarification on that from corporate for their no bio diesel allowed policy in any of our rental equipment. Based on the local suppliers, it's becoming really hard to meet that requirement.

 

[1970cs]

In the propaganda in the new delivery lit. They have disclaimer with the new tractors of up to 20% bio diesel.

The CRS units only have been approved for 5%

Pat

 

[Daren Todd]

In the propaganda in the new delivery lit. They have disclaimer with the new tractors of up to 20% bio diesel.

The CRS units only have been approved for 5%

Pat

What's "crs" stand for?

 

[lugbolt]

Bio is like E85 in that there is no consistency to speak of. Stay away. For instance if you bought a tier 4 tractor, run biodiesel through it and it damages the engine and/or DPF, you could be looking at a fairly large repair bill that warranty is likely not going to help you with.

The tier 4 stuff is NOT cheap to fix....those costs will come down over time but that time hasn't come yet. Just run ULSD and nothing else. Highway diesel is perfect. Offroad is the same thing but it sits in the tanks longer and can get contaminated easier for that reason.

I have a friend who has an M7040SUHD that had run bio through it. The engine is damaged internally. It was actually the same price to overhaul it as it was to replace it, and that's the direction it went. About $8600 if memory serves me correctly. But he saved about $.60 a gallon by using biodiesel.

 

[Wild and Free]

Bio is like E85 in that there is no consistency to speak of. Stay away. For instance if you bought a tier 4 tractor, run biodiesel through it and it damages the engine and/or DPF, you could be looking at a fairly large repair bill that warranty is likely not going to help you with.

The tier 4 stuff is NOT cheap to fix....those costs will come down over time but that time hasn't come yet. Just run ULSD and nothing else. Highway diesel is perfect. Offroad is the same thing but it sits in the tanks longer and can get contaminated easier for that reason.

I have a friend who has an M7040SUHD that had run bio through it. The engine is damaged internally. It was actually the same price to overhaul it as it was to replace it, and that's the direction it went. About $8600 if memory serves me correctly. But he saved about $.60 a gallon by using biodiesel.

The chances of the bio fuel being the cause of the engine damage would be slim to none as it has better lubricity factors than ULSD fuel "Assuming it was commercial fuel and not home brewed".

What people forget is the tolerances of the new high pressure fuel systems requires an emphasis that needs to be placed on the end user for super clean fuel and being filtered down to at minimum of 7 if not lower even like 2-5 micron absolute with good water separation is key to getting good life from the injectors, fail an injector and it can take out a piston real quick.
Like I say it is about keeping the fuel clean and filtered most important over all else. The days of having a rusty old service tank in the back of a pickup that has not ever been cleaned and has no filter on it to begin with is a good way to start issues and running low quality fuel filters and lack of proper maintenance of them is a main culprit of most in injector failures.

 

[adventure bob]

Ok, Bio that is made to ASTM 6751 is as good and as consistent as any dino diesel. Home brewers can make that level of bio without breaking a sweat. Not saying all do, but it is done. Its all about the chemistry baby.

It is true that bio does not age as well as dino, it breaks down into some stuff that doesn't do modern high pressure injectors much good.
However, you can find validated studies that show no degradation up to 39 weeks of storage. I have a hard time keeping fuel in mine over the weekend. While B100 has a higher H2O absorption than dino, it can be mitigated. Also the energy content of bio is not dramatic, not like ethanol and gas. Bio has the highest energy content of any replacement fuel compared to its dino counterpart. If your only running B90 its negligible.

The key to bio, get fresh bio made to ASTM 6751.

 

[coachgeo]

Being an old WVO guy and at several times in life very much into Energy Research and Development...... previous post from Bob and Wild are on the money

 

[1970cs]

What's "crs" stand for?

I kinda did that on purpose! The use of acronyms runs rampant on this site i.e. FEL is there such thing as back end loader, besides the bi-directional tractors.
Give me LA--- or MMM knowing the model number is much more helpful either do to known problems with certain units and diagnostics. (end of rant)

in the world realm
C: can't
R: remember
S: sh--

in the diesel world
C: common
R: rail
S: system

Pat

 

[Daren Todd]

I was thinking the first definition. I might suffer from that occasionally But figured it wasn't appropriate for this discussion

 

[1970cs]

I was thinking the first definition. I might suffer from that occasionally But figured it wasn't appropriate for this discussion

Great minds think alike!

Pat

 

[Daren Todd]

Great minds think alike!



Pat

So, why the difference in percentages of allowable bio diesel between the two systems?


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[lilguy]

My dealers tech didn't say don't use it. He said he's fixing quite a few rigs using the bio. Suggested staying away from it if possible. He told me of one Mobil dealer in town that carries straight diesel. I bought 12 gals and filled up my two
1985 rigs. It's a 45 mi drive each way. May get me a new 55 gal drum and do it in a couple runs a season. FS sells it but I may need a active ag acct to use them.

Bio pumps say 5-20 % mixture, why such a variation.

 

[coachgeo]

My dealers tech didn't say don't use it. He said he's fixing quite a few rigs using the bio. Suggested staying away from it if possible. He told me of one Mobil dealer in town that carries straight diesel. I bought 12 gals and filled up my two
1985 rigs. It's a 45 mi drive each way. May get me a new 55 gal drum and do it in a couple runs a season. FS sells it but I may need a active ag acct to use them.

Bio pumps say 5-20 % mixture, why such a variation.

Cause they are to lazy to change the stickers when the ratios are adjusted. Anotherwords as it gets colder the fuel distributor mixes with less Bio-D because it gells easier than Diesel Oil so it's 5% during that time. The seller might also buy their bulk as straight diesel during these times and either not say so..... or cover the stickers. Some will label it as Winterized diesel... as in NO Bio-D is mixed in. Colder the climate more liable they are to drop to zero Bio-D content. When colder temperatures are not a factor the ratio still changes though but for different reasons. They mix at different ratios according to fluctuation in prices of Oil and Bio-D. They will blend at the ratio; up to 20%, that brings the company highest profit at the pump.

 

[1970cs]

So, why the difference in percentages of allowable bio diesel between the two systems?


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In doing some reading, the biodiesel has denser structure or molecule chain that makes harder to breakdown so with that, it can get by the piston rings and pollute the oil more. Plus the DPF system will not like getting any unburnt materials and plug it faster!

The DPF filter if you will which Kubota believes it will last up to 3000 hrs before replacing $3000.00 plus labor and reprograming. Until a core return system is moving forward. This will be the harsh reality for the owners that do incur more hours than usual.

So take the initial markup, do to the DPF 15% of what your tractor cost you 27hp and above since 2014. So the average cost of 35 hp tractor cost the owner roughly $6000.00 extra with the filter replacement, by the time it would reach 3000 hours . Assuming no other issues with it before hand!

Thank you EPA!

Pat

 

[skeets]

Maybe VW could come up with something,,,snicker

 

[Daren Todd]

Maybe VW could come up with something,,,snicker

Been in a pinch before with those old catalytic converters where one clogged in the middle of winter and couldn't climb the mountain home. Tire iron made quick work of un clogging it